Why are we alive?

[Mijin]

@begbert2

A person who loathes themselves may feel that justice and good is served by punishing or hurting that which is loathsome. They are distressed (made more miserable) by the sense of the loathsome going unpunished. To alleviate that distress, to reduce their misery, to increase their (meagar) happiness, they self-harm with the goal of satisfying their inner need to attack that which they loathe and thereby hope to reduce their misery/improve their happiness.

@begbert2

Prove that the electrical signals transmitted between our neurons have nothing to do with our emotions. At any level. Because that’s what you’re saying by attributing it all to the neurochemicals.

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Which cite? The wiki? I addressed that. As I mentioned it addresses the simplistic Philosophical Egoist position, and not the argument that I have been making (which you have done nothing at all to refute) that at the cognitive level of actual decision-making there is necessarily a normalized comparative metric.

Yeah and I was responding to your address. I reminded you that earlier in this thread your argument was very much that we do things to make ourselves feel better; not that we do what we think is the correct choice of action.
The former is Egoism (actually, Hedonism). The latter is trivially true.

Remember, you called your theory many times – “seeking happiness / avoiding misery”. This strongly implies that improving our mental mood is our motivation.
You disagreed with me, when I said: “we don’t choose actions in an attempt to bring about a mental state”.

Now suddenly you’re trying to occupy the position of “we choose the action we feel most good about”.

But, I’m not surprised. Every time I have a debate with an Egoist, they end up claiming that they didn’t mean that we’re motivated by improving our mental state at all.

The real reasons and any arbitrarily speculated reasons are rather obviously two completely different goalposts.

Why must you be difficult like this?
I was making the point that finding a benefit to an action does nothing to prove a motivation, then I gave what I thought is the motivation.
I am not claiming that the argument supports the opinion that followed.

And who proposed this occured in exactly this manner? Oh, right, nobody. Strawman.

Nor did I claim anyone had said that. I addressed the point to all Egoists, because I suspect it is this reasoning that leads them astray.

Someone who does a lot of charitable work might say “I like helping people” to which the Egoist might think “Aha! So it’s not selfless, that person is trying to make themselves happy!”.
But, as I said, while doing our own conscious will tends to make us happy, it is never the motivation to act.

And AGAIN you fail to dig deeply enough into the underlying motives. Why do we like getting our own way?

We like getting our own way because we’re simply hard-wired to get a positive feedback when we successfully do something.
This feedback is related in large part to how difficult the task was. I can get quite a buzz from completing a video game, even though I hardly benefit from it.

Well, usually it’s because getting our way is beneficial to us - we like the outcome better, which is why we were arguing for it in the first place…

I agree we “like” the outcome (as long as “like” has no emotional connotations).
I disagree that that is the same thing as saying it is beneficial to us. The soldier who jumps on a grenade thinks it is a good idea to do so. It is not beneficial for him to do so however.
I diagree that trying to improve our mood is (always) the reason we act.

Which is why people don’t tend to toggle “ways” at the drop of the hat; they had a reason for wanting their way in the first place. And it’s quite daft to imply that that’s not usually the case.

What? My whole argument was that we have reasons for wanting a course of action, and that it’s daft to suggest we do things merely for the satisfaction of completing them. Then you accuse me of saying the polar opposite

[begbert2]

@Mijin

Yeah and I was responding to your address. I reminded you that earlier in this thread your argument was very much that we do things to make ourselves feel better; not that we do what we think is the correct choice of action.

I suggest you not even bother trying to tell me what my argument is.

@Mijin

Why must you be difficult like this?
I was making the point that finding a benefit to an action does nothing to prove a motivation, then I gave what I thought is the motivation.
I am not claiming that the argument supports the opinion that followed.

I have no idea what opinion you’re talking about. There was no opinion of that kind in the section of quoted text I was responding to.

I was just trying to sweep away a strawman. Don’t mind me.

@Mijin

Nor did I claim anyone had said that. I addressed the point to all Egoists, because I suspect it is this reasoning that leads them astray.

Arguing against an imagined opponent instead of the real person you’re actually talking to is the definition of a strawman.

@Mijin

Someone who does a lot of charitable work might say “I like helping people” to which the Egoist might think “Aha! So it’s not selfless, that person is trying to make themselves happy!”.
But, as I said, while doing our own conscious will tends to make us happy, it is never the motivation to act.

Let’s note that “I like helping people” and “I like succeeding in what I attempt” are totally different likes/preferences/motivations/whatever. Looks to me like you’re moving a goalpost here.

And, nice argument by assertion there, with that last sentence.

@Mijin

We like getting our own way because we’re simply hard-wired to get a positive feedback when we successfully do something.
This feedback is related in large part to how difficult the task was. I can get quite a buzz from completing a video game, even though I hardly benefit from it.

The peanut gallery will note that my entire argument is about that “hard-wired to get a positive feedback” business (though I’m not handwaving it like this).

And if you’re dismissing the enjoyment and “buzz” you get from playing a computer game as a possible motivation at any level, I’m curious why you play them at all.

@Mijin

I agree we “like” the outcome (as long as “like” has no emotional connotations).
I disagree that that is the same thing as saying it is beneficial to us. The soldier who jumps on a grenade thinks it is a good idea to do so. It is not beneficial for him to do so however.
I diagree that trying to improve our mood is (always) the reason we act.

That’s nice. I agree to let you pick and choose what you agree with.

And I don’t care enough to attempt to explain my position to you again. It’s all above. Read it and figure it out if you like. It’s not that complicated. Or don’t. I don’t care what you think.

@Mijin

What? My whole argument was that we have reasons for wanting a course of action, and that it’s daft to suggest we do things merely for the satisfaction of completing them. Then you accuse me of saying the polar opposite

You’re the one who propped up that daft strawman; nobody else. It’s your baby. And you can keep it.

[Mijin]

I think it’s clear that a mature debate is not possible here.
And I think it should be clear to any person reading this thread which one of us is trying to engage in debate and which one is just throwing their toys out of the pram.

Case in point; when I just illustrated that your position has “evolved” over the course of this debate with multiple quotes, your retort was effectively: “Shut up!”.

There’s little point in trying to reason with you further.

[begbert2]

Goodbye.

[_cc]

We are alive because the components that make up our bodies are very good at staying alive and making copies of themselves that are also alive.

Seconding (thirding? n-ing?) “read the Selfish Gene”, or anything else by global treasure Richard Dawkins.