# Why are we getting dissed by the larger inter-galactic community? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 15, 2005, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-we-getting-dissed-by-the-larger-inter-galactic-community/284835 "2005-01-15T06:15:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2005, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-we-getting-dissed-by-the-larger-inter-galactic-community/284835/41 "2005-01-15T23:29:56Z")
I find it much easier to believe that the only kind of civilization that could acheive anything significant would probably be a violent civilization, all things considered. Without internal pressures to “evolve”, both literally and figuratively, technology would tend towards stagnation. If you lived in such a peaceful paradise, I find it hard to fathom the desire to explore. Domination is the closest thing you can come to for a goal of life as we know it. Unless their biology was so vastly different that they didn’t even have evolutionary pressures as we know them, they will likely be as violent as every living organism on this planet. Which is, quite. Limited resources and competition? --Not a recipe for peace. Unlimited resources and peace? --Not a recipe for exploration. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2005, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-we-getting-dissed-by-the-larger-inter-galactic-community/284835/42 "2005-01-15T23:57:49Z")
> [@erislover](#): > > If you lived in such a peaceful paradise, I find it hard to fathom the desire to explore. What, curiosity and boredom aren’t sufficient motivation? ---
**Author:** ![Demorian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demorian/32/7273_2.png) [@Demorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Demorian)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2005, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-we-getting-dissed-by-the-larger-inter-galactic-community/284835/43 "2005-01-16T00:06:39Z")
> [@astro](#): > > They never call, they never write. > > Per the article below it’s highly probable that other intelligent species are out there, and at least some are aware of us. Assuming for moment that’s true and they _are_ out there, why no hello? What have they got to lose? Because the realistic restraints of physics make it highly unlikely that we would ever contact another civilzation. Why assume that there is an inter-galactic community? There’s absolutely no proof of this whatsoever, other than wishful thinking and science fiction writers. It disturbs me how otherwise sound-minded people lose their senses about this. > [@](#): > > [ET Visitors: Scientists See High Likelihood](http://www.space.com/searchforlife/et_betterodds_050114.html) News flash: God: Priests See High Likelihood :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2005, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-we-getting-dissed-by-the-larger-inter-galactic-community/284835/44 "2005-01-16T00:16:07Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > What, curiosity and boredom aren’t sufficient motivation? I bet you could find no end of volunteers for a manned mission to Mars. Of course, ask them how they’ll get there… ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ecks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/bcef8e/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ecks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ecks)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2005, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-we-getting-dissed-by-the-larger-inter-galactic-community/284835/45 "2005-01-16T00:22:42Z")
Also, what if the intelligent life out there is so different that there is no possibility of communication? What if the aliens are here- jupiter and saturn were colonized decades ago. They don’t bother looking at uninhabitable worlds like earth. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Love](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e8c25b/32.png) [@Dr.Love](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Love)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2005, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-we-getting-dissed-by-the-larger-inter-galactic-community/284835/46 "2005-01-16T01:13:13Z")
> [@erislover](#): > > I find it much easier to believe that the only kind of civilization that could acheive anything significant would probably be a violent civilization, all things considered. Without internal pressures to “evolve”, both literally and figuratively, technology would tend towards stagnation. If you lived in such a peaceful paradise, I find it hard to fathom the desire to explore. Domination is the closest thing you can come to for a goal of life as we know it. Unless their biology was so vastly different that they didn’t even have evolutionary pressures as we know them, they will likely be as violent as every living organism on this planet. Which is, quite. Limited resources and competition? --Not a recipe for peace. Unlimited resources and peace? --Not a recipe for exploration. I would say competition is necessary, but violence is not. Certainly any civilization is likely to have a history of violence, but that doesn’t mean that they’re violent now. Non-violent competition for limited resources has created many good things in our civilization. Perhaps an advanced civilization will completely do away with institutionalized violence. > [@Johnny Ecks](#): > > Also, what if the intelligent life out there is so different that there is no possibility of communication? Definitely a possibility. Many people tend to assume that some aspects of the universe are objective, and that one of these could be used as a starting point for communication. Some have said that math is a universal language, maybe we can start from there. > [@](#): > > What if the aliens are here- jupiter and saturn were colonized decades ago. They don’t bother looking at uninhabitable worlds like earth. One would assume that they would notice the probes we have sent by, or the strange EM waves radiating from our planet, and realize that there had to be intelligent life around somewhere. This is possible, but not very likely. ---
**Author:** ![rfgdxm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c0e974/32.png) [@rfgdxm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rfgdxm)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2005, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-we-getting-dissed-by-the-larger-inter-galactic-community/284835/47 "2005-01-16T01:48:48Z")
Someone else I can’t remember said this, but the best evidence for intelligent life in this galaxy is they have ignored this planet. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![laigle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ce7236/32.png) [@laigle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/laigle)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2005, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-we-getting-dissed-by-the-larger-inter-galactic-community/284835/48 "2005-01-16T01:59:02Z")
Think about it this way: compared to all known species, we are way the hell out on the outliers of the technology curve. Now, even if we knew for a fact that there was another technilogically advanced civilization a few start systems over, could we carry on an intelligent dialogue with them? Could we even alert them to our presence reliably? Doubtful. So why suspect that other civilizations would be able to do so, or would even be aware of us? This seems to be one of the areas where Star Trek shapes the discussion too much. There are no universal translators, there is no subspace comm network, and as far as we can tell there is no way to surpass light speed. Interstellar travel and communication are just not likely. ---
**Author:** ![jimmmy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/73ab20/32.png) [@jimmmy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimmmy)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2005, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-we-getting-dissed-by-the-larger-inter-galactic-community/284835/49 "2005-01-16T02:18:59Z")
The main problem I have with the article: I think probably, if they have been/are here, there is simply no way they would be in HUGE GLOWING UFO’s – literally glowing in the dark for the population of Tucson and Rio to gawp at. It doesn’t make sense to this primate: If you want to make contact - make it. If you want to stay hidden do that - but why do some half assed in-between thing? “you think as human thinks, puny man, not as Kodos thinks” is cop-out say I -arrogantly I know My WAG: by the time we can we can soar across 100 light years, we will be able to keep ourselves well hidden from Conan if we choose to. Or we would choose not to. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2005, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-we-getting-dissed-by-the-larger-inter-galactic-community/284835/50 "2005-01-16T02:27:27Z")
> [@Demorian](#): > > Ah, the scientific version of religion. > [@Demorian](#): > > Because the realistic restraints of physics make it highly unlikely that we would ever contact another civilzation. > > Why assume that there is an inter-galactic community? There’s absolutely no proof of this whatsoever, other than wishful thinking and science fiction writers. It disturbs me how otherwise sound-minded people lose their senses about this. > > News flash: God: Priests See High Likelihood :rolleyes: Look Captain Obvious you’ve now seen fit to insert two content free snarky posts into this thread. It may well be that we are the sum total of intelligent life in the local parsec, the galaxy, or even if there is other intelligent life in the universe, logistical constaints will prevent us from contacting one another. This thread is predicated on the obviously speculative, and somewhat fanciiful hypothetical, that intelligent life does exist, is aware of us in some fashion, but has not communicated with us. That’s the sandbox defined in the OP. If you disagree with the assumptions in the hypothetical, and there are lots of practical reasons why these assumptions may be impractical or impossible, why bother littering up the thread huffing and puffing about how improbable it is, and making inane comments about the discussion of alien civilizations being “the scientific version of religion”. Here’s a newsflash for you. Virtually everyone engaging in this discussion, except you, is well aware that the hypothetical is highly fanciful, and yet it’s a topic that we can politely discuss on a “what if” basis. If the notion of seriously considering the ramifications of the existence of alien life and pan-galactic civilzations bothers you on some fundamental ontological level, join up and start a thread about this ungood thinking foolishness. If all you have to contribute is the not-so-original observation of “Silly speculation! Couldn’t happen”, why even bother? ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2005, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-we-getting-dissed-by-the-larger-inter-galactic-community/284835/51 "2005-01-16T02:49:47Z")
> [@](#): > > “Welcome to Entertainment And Earth Invasion Tonite. Across the galaxy my people are completing the mighty space fleet that will exterminate the human race! But first, this news from Tinseltown.” > ~~ **Morbo The Newsmonster** 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Love](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e8c25b/32.png) [@Dr.Love](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Love)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2005, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-we-getting-dissed-by-the-larger-inter-galactic-community/284835/52 "2005-01-16T03:04:36Z")
> [@jimmmy](#): > > The main problem I have with the article: I think probably, if they have been/are here, there is simply no way they would be in HUGE GLOWING UFO’s – literally glowing in the dark for the population of Tucson and Rio to gawp at. It doesn’t make sense to this primate: If you want to make contact - make it. If you want to stay hidden do that - but why do some half assed in-between thing? > > “you think as human thinks, puny man, not as Kodos thinks” is cop-out say I -arrogantly I know] > > My WAG: by the time we can we can soar across 100 light years, we will be able to keep ourselves well hidden from Conan if we choose to. Or we would choose not to. There is a third possibility. Perhaps it takes more energy to stay hidden than it does to be out in the open, and Kodos simply doesn’t care whether Conan sees him or not. If I were visiting a primitive planet, I doubt I would want to waste UFO-fuel by hiding from Og. Not defending the UFO fanatics, just saying. ---
**Author:** ![JoeSki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b487fb/32.png) [@JoeSki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoeSki)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2005, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-we-getting-dissed-by-the-larger-inter-galactic-community/284835/53 "2005-01-16T03:43:17Z")
Whenever I wonder why our galactic neighbhors never say “Hi”, I always remember there are some primitive tribes on our own planet we don’t pay a lot of attention to. ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2005, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-we-getting-dissed-by-the-larger-inter-galactic-community/284835/54 "2005-01-16T03:46:57Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Bush can’t escape anyones wrath can he? :rolleyes: Yeah, you can’t get around **rjung** being a jerk by dropping into just about _everything_ here in GD or the Pit, and attempting to hijack it with a cheap-ass drive-by Bush-bashing quip. I’m waiting for him to branch out into GQ, IMHO, Gafe Society and MPSIMS, as well, so I can ask the Admins for my Straight Dope subscription money back and leave this place once and for all. As to the OP: we’re probably as interesting to an advanced, space-faring civilizations as a group of chimps are to the human race (certain scientists notwithstanding). _:Alien 1:_ :Yawn: Oh, Great Graznak! Not _another_ bunch of primitives! _:Alien 2:_ Yepper. Another bunch of nationalistic, nuclear-armed, war-mongering, hydrocarbon-burning, knuckle-dragging morons. _:Alien Leader:_ We’ve got enough data on these monkey-boys. Let’s get hopping to Omicron Persei 8; Supreme Leader Lur has invited us to dinner. _:Alien 1:_ Hey! Lur’s a carnivore, so lets scoop up some of these monkeys so we don’t show up to dinner empty-handed. _:Alien 2:_ It _would_ be the civilized thing to do. _Alien Leader:_ Very well, take us down and set the stun beams on ready stand-by. We’ll grab 4 or 5 of these monkey-men before Jumping out of this star system. ---
**Author:** ![Sunshine\_and\_Smiles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Sunshine\_and\_Smiles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunshine_and_Smiles)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2005, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-we-getting-dissed-by-the-larger-inter-galactic-community/284835/55 "2005-01-16T04:26:19Z")
Oh… Guys, I got a call a few years ago from some IGC saying they wanted to send an ambassador. I guess I just thought it was a prank phone call. I didn’t mean for the Earth to be shunned from the inter-galactic community! I’m sorry! ~S&S 😉 ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2005, 7:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-we-getting-dissed-by-the-larger-inter-galactic-community/284835/56 "2005-01-16T07:19:19Z")
> [@ExTank](#): > > I’m waiting for him to branch out into GQ, IMHO, Gafe Society and MPSIMS, as well, so I can ask the Admins for my Straight Dope subscription money back and leave this place once and for all. I’m already a regular visitor to three of those four forums, so why are you still here? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2005, 7:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-we-getting-dissed-by-the-larger-inter-galactic-community/284835/57 "2005-01-16T07:23:02Z")
Because I’ve yet to see you in MPSIMS blaming someone’s getting a new kitten on GWB in particular and pointy-headed 'Pubbies in general. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2005, 7:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-we-getting-dissed-by-the-larger-inter-galactic-community/284835/58 "2005-01-16T07:46:53Z")
So, is that a flip-flop or a waffle? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![ambushed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3bc359/32.png) [@ambushed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ambushed)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2005, 8:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-we-getting-dissed-by-the-larger-inter-galactic-community/284835/59 "2005-01-16T08:48:30Z")
> [@astro](#): > > They never call, they never write. > > Per the article below it’s highly probable that other intelligent species are out there, and at least some are aware of us. Assuming for moment that’s true and they _are_ out there, why no hello? What have they got to lose? > > [ET Visitors: Scientists See High Likelihood](http://www.space.com/searchforlife/et_betterodds_050114.html) Here’s a quotation from that article: > [@](#): > > Haisch along with physicists James Deardorff, Bruce Maccabee and Harold Puthoff make their case in the JBIS article: “Inflation-Theory Implications for Extraterrestrial Visitation”. **astro** , apparently you’ve never heard of Bruce Maccabee and Harold Puthoff, co-authors of that article and two of the most laughable crackpots of modern times. They made most of that bullshit up, my friend. Truth is anathema to those two. (Granted, though, I don’t know anything about the other authors). Fermi’s paradox is depressingly compelling: if extraterrestrial intelligences in this galaxy exist now or ever existed, given all those billions of years they had to develop interstellar travel, they or their robots would be here already. They’re not, so there’s no good reason to believe they exist, which I find very disappointing. At the very best the probability that they exist is very low, hard as that is for even me to believe. But Fermi’s complaint is just about incontrovertible. ---
**Author:** ![ambushed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3bc359/32.png) [@ambushed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ambushed)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2005, 9:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-we-getting-dissed-by-the-larger-inter-galactic-community/284835/60 "2005-01-16T09:17:35Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Seriously, it looks to me like this hypothetical interstellar community is dependent on a presumption that the other critters will have figured out a solution to faster-than-light travel and I’m not convinced that there is such a solution. Speculations about quantum strings and “wormholes” as possibilities are currently no better than wild hypotheticals. > > If FTL travel is not possible then its not possible and no amount of technological development is going to make it possible. And as long as we have to poke along at c- speeds then it may well be impossible to establish any sort of contact between any two alien civilizations unless they are incidentally very close to each other (like the same planetary system). I certainly agree that there are no plausible prospects for FTL travel and will probably never be. However, I don’t accept that being limited to subluminal speeds would reduce the probability of contact; actually, this limit might well increase the odds. Fermi didn’t believe for a second that FTL would be possible, but nevertheless he knew that it would take just ONE extraterrestrial civilization out of potential billions to build interstellar, colonizing spacecraft which would spread out into the galaxy like wildfire during the many billions of years they had to expand. That’s the whole point of his so-called “paradox”. Now, let’s not forget the time-dilation effect of travel at substantial fractions of the speed of light. The trip time to any colonists would seem quite short. Furthermore, colonization doesn’t require continued contact with the home world: they’d bring everything they needed, knowing two-way contact would be hopeless. And here’s why the c-limit might actually increase the probability of contact: given the high cost (especially of energy) of slower-than-light colony ships, they’d almost certainly build self-assembling von Neumann robots to break trail for them. Given enough time, there could be hundreds of trillions of such robots scouting the galaxy for resources, even if only to make more of themselves. I’m sorry, but Fermi’s argument is much stronger than most people realize. Given the vast amount of time that’s passed since intelligent, technological life could have first evolved, if they existed we would know about it. We don’t, so they almost certainly don’t exist, at least in this galaxy. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-we-getting-dissed-by-the-larger-inter-galactic-community/284835.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-we-getting-dissed-by-the-larger-inter-galactic-community/284835.md?page=4)