# Why are we getting dissed by the larger inter-galactic community? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 15, 2005, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-we-getting-dissed-by-the-larger-inter-galactic-community/284835 "2005-01-15T06:15:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![ambushed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3bc359/32.png) [@ambushed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ambushed)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2005, 9:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-we-getting-dissed-by-the-larger-inter-galactic-community/284835/61 "2005-01-16T09:22:54Z")
> [@continuity eror](#): > > I think we’re viewing this problem through a Euro centric lens. What if they don’t want to colonize other worlds? The ancient Chinese were more advanced with Europeans, but they had no desire to colonize Europe or any other place. The aliens might have a totally self-sufficient world that they’ve taken good care of, so they don’t feel a need to colonize. They’re isolationists. You’re missing the point of Fermi’s logic entirely. You’re writing as if there could ONLY be isolationist extraterrestrial civilizations, which is complete nonsense. All it would take is ONE advanced colonizing ET civilization out of billions to validate Fermi’s paradox. And you’ve got to admit ONE is possible. Sorry, the probability of ETs remains trivially small. ---
**Author:** ![ambushed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3bc359/32.png) [@ambushed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ambushed)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2005, 9:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-we-getting-dissed-by-the-larger-inter-galactic-community/284835/62 "2005-01-16T09:30:42Z")
> [@Rusalka](#): > > I think it is much more likely that any advanced civilization would send intelligent undetectable probes than come themselves. What would be the point of coming yourself? What would be the point of making the probes undetectable? Come now! All it would take is ONE advanced colonizing ET civilization who made detectable probes (in the form of self-assembling von Neumann machines), and your entire thesis is shot to hell. And you must admit there could have been ONE. Fermi’s logic can’t be overcome so easily. There probably aren’t any ETs out there, hard as that is for me to accept. > [@Rusalka](#): > > You can’t assume the “aliens” would have any of the motivations or desires that humans do. Surely ONE out of the potential billions would! [/QUOTE] > [@Rusalka](#): > > There’s also no guarantee that we humans are the type of organism which eventually advances to the point of awareness of other civilizations, or is able to bridge interstellar space. I’m talking about our inherent, inescapable greediness and personal self-interest, and our inability to plan for the far off future. (these are not value judgments, just facts of human nature for the majority). I think our life-span is simply too short. How would that prevent ETs from contacting us, or at least of us learning of their existence? Be practical, please. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2005, 9:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-we-getting-dissed-by-the-larger-inter-galactic-community/284835/63 "2005-01-16T09:35:15Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > And this makes you wonder what kind of religious paradigms that the aliens would have. What if they have missionaries of their own? What if we finally get a visit and it’s the Alpha Centaurian equivalent of Jehova’s Witnesses. > > “Greetings. Have you heard the good news about Marqlar?” There’s a very funny short story about our first communications from an alien race being religious propaganda: > [@](#): > > "’…No sign of any improvement, is there?’ > ‘Nope,’ Okamura said. ‘As of 25 years ago, at least, Akron’s still governed by a fanatical theocracy out to convert the universe.’ He sighed. ‘I imagine you know the history of Ozma’s contact with them? For the first 75 years or so, everything went smoothly. Slow and unspectacular… but progress was being made in understanding their language. And then–when they figured we’d learned it well enough–they started sending doctrine. Nothing but doctrine, ever since. Every message of theirs a sermon, or a text from one of their holy books followed by an analysis that my Jewish friends tell me makes the medieval rabbis look like romantic poets… It’s a grim sort of religion. I daresay anyone who opposes its ministers is in danger of burning at the stake, or whatever the Akronite equivalent may be.’ From _The Word to Space_, by Winston P. Sanders. The answer has already been mentioned; other intelligent, space-faring species in our vicinity probably don’t exist, and even if they did, the immense distances between stars combined with the galactic speed limit make practical travel to other worlds impossible. ET may be out there, but we’ll never know. And take it elsewhere, **Rjung** and **Ex Tank**. ---
**Author:** ![ambushed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3bc359/32.png) [@ambushed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ambushed)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2005, 9:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-we-getting-dissed-by-the-larger-inter-galactic-community/284835/64 "2005-01-16T09:36:09Z")
> [@Triskadecamus](#): > > If there are a trillion civilizations in the universe, more or less constantly, and each one expands at the speed of light for ten thousand years average, we can expect the closest one to be a million light years away. On the average. It could be ten times that distance. > > We live in a very large universe. But a very small galaxy! Your math, while possibly valid, simply doesn’t address Fermi’s paradox within the realm of the Milky Way. Remember, all it would take is ONE! And we haven’t seen any sign of them or their robots. Ergo, they probably don’t exist in this galaxy. Universe-wide, I have no opinion. ---
**Author:** ![ambushed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3bc359/32.png) [@ambushed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ambushed)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2005, 9:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-we-getting-dissed-by-the-larger-inter-galactic-community/284835/65 "2005-01-16T09:40:10Z")
> [@Snag](#): > > Possible reasons as to why we may not have seen them yet: > > \*It’s too damned far away. > \*It’s too damned expensive to be worth the trouble. > \*It’s too damned poor of an intellectual exercise to leave one’s solar system, and they don’t want probes to be found. > \*Some technological races may not be able to pursue space flight (metal poor planets, heavier gravity, expense, taboos, a permanent cloud cover that never lets them see stars…). > \*Very few sentient races may become technically competent enough to accomplish interstellar travel. > \*It’s difficult for sentient beings to cross the void for the millennia it might take. > \*Perhaps they’re still looking at the data that may take millennia to process and respond to. It’s only gotten really interesting here in the last few centuries. > \*They study us silently, perhaps intent to keep us in our own backyard until we learn to play nice. > \*We may be among the first technological races to arise. > \*"Short cuts” such nano-technology (for reducing the amount of mass needed to send across the void) thus shortening the time of colonization and continuance, prove unfeasible and thus it takes too much damned time to be worthwhile. > \*Perhaps they’ve been here and we are them, either as life in general or humankind specifically as in Clarke’s 2001. > \*It’s going to take them still another 24 hours to get here. > \*Every time one race meets another, they kill each other off and the job never gets finished. > \*Can we be _certain_ that we know cosmology and quantum mechanics well enough at this time that we aren’t missing additional problems in traveling between the void? Or are we missing something general not yet recognized, such as a large lensing effect (by all that missing matter) that makes the extra-solar universe seem much smaller to us than it really is? It would take only ONE success over the course of several billion years and untold billions of civilizations. The odds are just about dead on that they’d have made themselves known if they existed. ---
**Author:** ![ambushed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3bc359/32.png) [@ambushed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ambushed)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2005, 9:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-we-getting-dissed-by-the-larger-inter-galactic-community/284835/66 "2005-01-16T09:49:18Z")
> [@Loopydude](#): > > The String Theorists would disagree, but I had pretty much the same reaction to the report. It seems the authors plug their more-or-less arbitrarily-obtained values into the variables of Drake’s equation, simply posit warp drives are feasible, and the rest, of course, follows “naturally”. > > We’ve got an N of 1, folks: Earth. You can’t base much of anything off of that, except “life happens”. What we do know is if we assume there are a few advanced civilizations extant in the galaxy, even only one, it’s physically possible for them to give rise to a wave of colonization that envelops the entire galactic disk in only a few million years; so they ought to be in the neighborhood somewhere. Whether they exist, would care to colonize at all, already been and went, are on their way even now, or even live among us as we speak is completely unknown. Probability estimates, even if sound, don’t give you much to work with when you have no data. Given that nearly all UFO sightings recorded have been either faked or explained quite adequately by other more Earthbound phenomena, this paper is most definitely no justification for taking such sightings any more seriously than we have before. Thanks for what I consider the post with the clearest thinking on this topic I’ve read so far. Nicely written, too. However, as Fermi made clear, such probability estimates are really moot. As you appear to recognize, it would take only ONE to put ET right on our front door. And since ONE is the least we should expect, since we haven’t seen that one, single ET, we’re forced to accept that there probably aren’t any at all out there. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2005, 9:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-we-getting-dissed-by-the-larger-inter-galactic-community/284835/67 "2005-01-16T09:52:07Z")
Huh. So maybe we’re the first. We’re the first planet to develop sentience and culture, and we’ll be the first to reach the stars. And millions of years from now, the future races of the galaxy will look at the remains of our works with wonder and awe. Maybe _we’re_ the Old Ones. ---
**Author:** ![ambushed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3bc359/32.png) [@ambushed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ambushed)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2005, 9:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-we-getting-dissed-by-the-larger-inter-galactic-community/284835/68 "2005-01-16T09:58:50Z")
> [@erislover](#): > > I find it much easier to believe that the only kind of civilization that could acheive anything significant would probably be a violent civilization, all things considered. Without internal pressures to “evolve”, both literally and figuratively, technology would tend towards stagnation. If you lived in such a peaceful paradise, I find it hard to fathom the desire to explore. Domination is the closest thing you can come to for a goal of life as we know it. Unless their biology was so vastly different that they didn’t even have evolutionary pressures as we know them, they will likely be as violent as every living organism on this planet. Which is, quite. Limited resources and competition? --Not a recipe for peace. Unlimited resources and peace? --Not a recipe for exploration. It seems far more likely that semi-violent species such as our own would expand into space; the driving psychological force being to get “our” group, the Spizcans, at least a planet away from those damn, dirty Gorlocks. In any event, at least one of those ET civilizations would escape self-annihilation and stagnation, leaving Fermi’s paradox in full effect. ---
**Author:** ![Demorian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demorian/32/7273_2.png) [@Demorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Demorian)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2005, 9:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-we-getting-dissed-by-the-larger-inter-galactic-community/284835/69 "2005-01-16T09:59:39Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > The answer has already been mentioned; other intelligent, space-faring species in our vicinity probably don’t exist, and even if they did, the immense distances between stars combined with the galactic speed limit make practical travel to other worlds impossible. ET may be out there, but we’ll never know. Right, the restraints of physics. And I don’t think the astrophysicists hypothesizing wormholes and bends in space-time are going to come up with anything that doesn’t involve something physically impossible to create. Given that, it always amazes me to see these kinds of threads grow and grow. It is like the “religion gene”, only modernized for aliens. > [@](#): > > And take it elsewhere, **Rjung** and **Ex Tank**. Seconded. ---
**Author:** ![ambushed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3bc359/32.png) [@ambushed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ambushed)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2005, 10:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-we-getting-dissed-by-the-larger-inter-galactic-community/284835/70 "2005-01-16T10:01:24Z")
> [@Demorian](#): > > Because the realistic restraints of physics make it highly unlikely that we would ever contact another civilzation. “Highly unlikely” does not equal “impossible”. All it would take is ONE species out of potentially billions. ---
**Author:** ![ambushed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3bc359/32.png) [@ambushed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ambushed)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2005, 10:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-we-getting-dissed-by-the-larger-inter-galactic-community/284835/71 "2005-01-16T10:04:04Z")
> [@Johnny Ecks](#): > > Also, what if the intelligent life out there is so different that there is no possibility of communication? > What if the aliens are here- jupiter and Saturn were colonized decades ago. They don’t bother looking at uninhabitable worlds like earth. All it would take is ONE far-traveling civilization out of billions that _could_ communicate with us and wanted to do so. ONE is so small a number that no calculation of odds can dismiss it. Fermi stands. ---
**Author:** ![ambushed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3bc359/32.png) [@ambushed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ambushed)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2005, 10:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-we-getting-dissed-by-the-larger-inter-galactic-community/284835/72 "2005-01-16T10:08:21Z")
> [@JoeSki](#): > > Whenever I wonder why our galactic neighbhors never say “Hi”, I always remember there are some primitive tribes on our own planet we don’t pay a lot of attention to. But there’s NONE we’ve never said “Hi” to. At least to the best of our knowledge. If there were, anthropologists would flock there in droves. And surely one of them would say “Hi”. ---
**Author:** ![ambushed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3bc359/32.png) [@ambushed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ambushed)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2005, 10:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-we-getting-dissed-by-the-larger-inter-galactic-community/284835/73 "2005-01-16T10:16:26Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Huh. > > So maybe we’re the first. We’re the first planet to develop sentience and culture, and we’ll be the first to reach the stars. And millions of years from now, the future races of the galaxy will look at the remains of our works with wonder and awe. > > Maybe _we’re_ the Old Ones. That’s pretty much what I am forced to believe by Fermi’s logic. Let’s hope we get through Drake’s equation! ---
**Author:** ![Demorian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demorian/32/7273_2.png) [@Demorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Demorian)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2005, 10:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-we-getting-dissed-by-the-larger-inter-galactic-community/284835/74 "2005-01-16T10:28:44Z")
> [@ambushed](#): > > “Highly unlikely” does not equal “impossible”. All it would take is ONE species out of potentially billions. Given infinite time, nothing is “impossible”. By “highly unlikely” I mean, for all intents and purposes, impossible. Frankly, I doubt humans will exist as a species by the time our signals can even possibly maybe be heard by someone potentially advanced enough to happen to be listening, and only then if their rabbit-ear antennas have tin foil wrapped around them. And even then, their reply wouldn’t be heard until they were extinct, too. It just isn’t scientifically sound reasoning. It is irrational. ---
**Author:** ![ambushed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3bc359/32.png) [@ambushed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ambushed)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2005, 10:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-we-getting-dissed-by-the-larger-inter-galactic-community/284835/75 "2005-01-16T10:42:03Z")
> [@Demorian](#): > > Given infinite time, nothing is “impossible”. By “highly unlikely” I mean, for all intents and purposes, impossible. Frankly, I doubt humans will exist as a species by the time our signals can even possibly maybe be heard by someone potentially advanced enough to happen to be listening, and only then if their rabbit-ear antennas have tin foil wrapped around them. And even then, their reply wouldn’t be heard until they were extinct, too. > > It just isn’t scientifically sound reasoning. It is irrational. You clearly don’t understand the premises of Fermi’s paradox. By the way, if you read my previous posts you should be able to tell that I’m hardly supporting the ET hypothesis, but there’s nothing irrational or unsound about the possibility of ETs. You are mistaken about that. ---
**Author:** ![Demorian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demorian/32/7273_2.png) [@Demorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Demorian)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2005, 10:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-we-getting-dissed-by-the-larger-inter-galactic-community/284835/76 "2005-01-16T10:51:41Z")
> [@ambushed](#): > > You clearly don’t understand the premises of Fermi’s paradox. Probably because I’m a humanities person and don’t care about it. 🙂 > [@](#): > > By the way, if you read my previous posts you should be able to tell that I’m hardly supporting the ET hypothesis, but there’s nothing irrational or unsound about the possibility of ETs. You are mistaken about that. No, I’m sure life, and probably intelligent life, and likely life more intelligetnt than ours, exists or has existed or will exist. However, this thread is about an inter-galactic community not contacting us. The article in the OP is posted as “ET Visitors: Scientists See High Likelihood.” I am merely pointing out that the likelihood of a ET visitor is asininely stupid and, as I said, highly unlikely, and the continued fantacies by people with otherwise sound minds are just stupid. ---
**Author:** ![Frankenstein\_Monster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ccd318/32.png) [@Frankenstein\_Monster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frankenstein_Monster)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2005, 11:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-we-getting-dissed-by-the-larger-inter-galactic-community/284835/77 "2005-01-16T11:21:56Z")
> [@Loopydude](#): > > That scene was extremely well written, because the stoned philosopher sounds exactly like George Hanson (Nicholson’s character) bogarting a fat doobie. The trouble is, unless you have an exceedingly good-natured sense of humor, it’s extremely irritating and/or exhasperating for the sober to have to listen to someone prattling on like that for any length of time. I’m assuming this is what **Frankenstein’s Monster** was getting at. Actually, it’s my favorite scene from that movie. That speech goes on for more than 3 minutes, and it’s impossible to take seriously. But [people taking the subject seriously](http://www.scientificexploration.org/jse/abstracts/v12n2a1.php) is indeed rather… exasperating. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2005, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-we-getting-dissed-by-the-larger-inter-galactic-community/284835/78 "2005-01-16T11:32:23Z")
**Moderator’s Note:** **Rjung** , please keep the political potshots confined to our numerous threads about politics. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2005, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-we-getting-dissed-by-the-larger-inter-galactic-community/284835/79 "2005-01-16T11:41:23Z")
> [@ambushed](#): > > All it would take is ONE far-traveling civilization out of billions that _could_ communicate with us and wanted to do so. ONE is so small a number that no calculation of odds can dismiss it. Fermi stands. You seem to think that there could be only several billions or zero ET intelligent species. Your argument (that at least one ET civilization would have spread all over the galaxy) would only be valid against someone arguing that there’s _a lot_ of alien intelligent species in our galaxy. But let’s assume there has been only a dozen, for instance. Then, why would we assume that one of them would necessarily have been interested in colonizing the galaxy? They could not have been interested in exploring it, not have felt any need to do so (what the point of colonizing the galaxy, exactly?), they could have only sent probes taht we can’t detect/ didn’t have the time to detect given the very short time elapsed since we entered in the realm of technology, they could (very probably would) use technologies to study the galaxy that we’re unaware of, the earth could be too long away/ isolated for it being worth the time needed to probe it, or not a suitable planet for them, etc, etc, etc… Fermi paradox only shows that intelligent life _similar to ours_ (same kind of behavior/motives), and _long lived_ can’t be _commonplace_ in our galaxy. It isn’t as strong an argument as you make it to be. ---
**Author:** ![Asteroide](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/87869e/32.png) [@Asteroide](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asteroide)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2005, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-we-getting-dissed-by-the-larger-inter-galactic-community/284835/80 "2005-01-16T12:11:59Z")
> [@ambushed](#): > > All it would take is ONE far-traveling civilization out of billions that _could_ communicate with us and wanted to do so. ONE is so small a number that no calculation of odds can dismiss it. Fermi stands. I understand that you’re using “ONE” rhetorically, but I don’t see why this position is valid. It assumes that this communication hasn’t already taken place - we would only have been able to recognize it in the last hundred years or so, if that. It assumes that Earth would for some reason be high on the priority list for any great intelligence to make contact with - when we humans still haven’t got around to exploring some of the more hostile parts of our own planet (deep ocean floor, beneath the ice caps). on preview - what he ( **Clairobscur** ) said > [@Demorian](#): > > However, this thread is about an inter-galactic community not contacting us. The article in the OP is posted as “ET Visitors: Scientists See High Likelihood.” I am merely pointing out that the likelihood of a ET visitor is asininely stupid and, as I said, highly unlikely, and the continued fantacies by people with otherwise sound minds are just stupid. Assuming that some absolute law of the Universe doesn’t make ET communication impossible, the likelihood would be very much time dependent. Agreed that the likelihood of “intelligent” ET contact tomorrow is infinitesimal based on current info, but since our current knowledge of the universe is also recent and infinitesimal, depending on how long we last, things could certainly change. Accepting Fermi’s paradox requires us to accept two somewhat difficult propositions : “The end of history” that everything which happens has already happened. 'The exception" : If you accept that human life is the result of the processes of the Universe, it seems irrational to believe that similar events haven’t taken place elsewhere, including other technology creating life-forms (or “non-life-forms”). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-we-getting-dissed-by-the-larger-inter-galactic-community/284835.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-we-getting-dissed-by-the-larger-inter-galactic-community/284835.md?page=5)