# Why are we now keeping the menu a secret? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 20, 2014, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-we-now-keeping-the-menu-a-secret/681773 "2014-02-20T05:36:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2014, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-we-now-keeping-the-menu-a-secret/681773/41 "2014-02-23T16:49:38Z")
> [@SCAdian](#): > > If there’s also a secret menu, then what’s posted is obviously not their ENTIRE menu, no? They’re basically custom orders that, over time, developed their own names. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2014, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-we-now-keeping-the-menu-a-secret/681773/42 "2014-02-23T17:58:30Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > They’re basically custom orders that, over time, developed their own names. And that’s fine, but one can’t both praise In-and-Out for the delightful transparency and simplicity of their menu and also praise them for the existence of a whole other “secret” menu. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2014, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-we-now-keeping-the-menu-a-secret/681773/43 "2014-02-23T18:15:11Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > And that’s fine, but one can’t both praise In-and-Out for the delightful transparency and simplicity of their menu and also praise them for the existence of a whole other “secret” menu. I personally don’t see it as a problem as you can come up with all those orders yourself by specifying what you want in a burger. I can go to any ma and pop place here and get what’s on the “secret menu” by customizing my order. Not every possible burger combination is listed. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2014, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-we-now-keeping-the-menu-a-secret/681773/44 "2014-02-23T18:16:29Z")
> [@Soylent\_Juicy](#): > > Funny this thread came up today because I was just thinking about this yesterday at Tim Horton’s. As a vegetarian, I always order their “Garden Sandwich” for lunch. It is not listed on the menu board. I only know about it because I’ve been ordering it for years. Other vegetarians might not know that this option exists (and is cheaper than the few vegetarian options that ARE on the board.) Officially, it doesn’t exist. The Garden Sandwich was discontinued a few years ago (I used to order it all the time). It’s nice that your local Horton’s still makes it though. [http://www.timhortons.com/us/en/menu/sandwiches-wraps.html](http://www.timhortons.com/us/en/menu/sandwiches-wraps.html) ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2014, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-we-now-keeping-the-menu-a-secret/681773/45 "2014-02-23T20:10:05Z")
FWIW, this is not limited to fast food and quick-food restaurants. There has been a strong trend for restaurants to redesign their menus for maximum profit in the last decade. Part of it is “positive” in that restaurants have learned that giving the patron adequate information to make a choice saves time and confusion and leads them to ordering higher-profit signature dishes instead of old standbys. Most of it, though, is at the intersection of graphic/publication design and behavioral science, leading people to order more and more expensively than less "efficient’ menus did. ---
**Author:** ![Hampshire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hampshire/32/4887_2.png) [@Hampshire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hampshire)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2014, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-we-now-keeping-the-menu-a-secret/681773/46 "2014-02-23T20:11:16Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > And that’s fine, but one can’t both praise In-and-Out for the delightful transparency and simplicity of their menu and also praise them for the existence of a whole other “secret” menu. I’ve never been to an In-and-Out but wonder just how secret the menu is when they put it plainly on their website and refer to it as their not-so-secret menu. ---
**Author:** ![CoastalMaineiac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e8c25b/32.png) [@CoastalMaineiac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CoastalMaineiac)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2014, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-we-now-keeping-the-menu-a-secret/681773/47 "2014-02-23T22:50:25Z")
> [@gigi](#): > > I know the KFC menu fairly well and I agree with you. The latest iteration is not very descriptive at all. I haven’t ordered off the menu in a KFC for a while. The one in Augusta, Maine has an all-you-can-eat buffet for $8.99. I can get my money’s worth every time!😃 ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2014, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-we-now-keeping-the-menu-a-secret/681773/48 "2014-02-24T00:06:53Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > Sounds like they need a special annotated menu for their high maintenance customers. Or maybe some sort of concierge to guide you through the ordering process. Oh, I see opportunity here. MeDonalds Velvet! Valet parking! Personalized menus! Confidential cuisine advising! Post-glurge guilt counselling! McDonalds…it’s not just fast food. It’s a fast food lifestyle! Stranger ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2014, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-we-now-keeping-the-menu-a-secret/681773/49 "2014-02-24T02:56:54Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > I personally don’t see it as a problem as you can come up with all those orders yourself by specifying what you want in a burger. I can go to any ma and pop place here and get what’s on the “secret menu” by customizing my order. Not every possible burger combination is listed. > [@Hampshire](#): > > I’ve never been to an In-and-Out but wonder just how secret the menu is when they put it plainly on their website and refer to it as their not-so-secret menu. Again, I’ve got no problem with it. I like In-and-Out. It’s just you can’t say “It’s so simple! So straightforward! So clear! So efficient!” and also “Well, except you wouldn’t believe how many ways you can customize things! Crazy things that would never occur to you if you didn’t check out the menu on line first!” The In-and-Out system is fine. It seems to work. I’m totally cool with it. But the OP was complaining about not being about to figure out what he could order or how much it cost, and someone suggested he go to In-and-Out to solve that problem while at the same time mentioning that “Oh yeah, there’s a secret menu of other stuff you can order that has different prices. How cool is that?”. In-and-Out is great. But it’s not the solution to the OP’s problem. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Downtown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Mr\_Downtown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Downtown)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2014, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-we-now-keeping-the-menu-a-secret/681773/50 "2014-02-24T04:35:22Z")
^Also because the nearest one is 800 miles away. And because I like flame-broiled burgers, not fried burgers. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2014, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-we-now-keeping-the-menu-a-secret/681773/51 "2014-02-24T04:52:41Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > Again, I’ve got no problem with it. I like In-and-Out. It’s just you can’t say “It’s so simple! So straightforward! So clear! So efficient!” Well, I guess I see it differently, because to me it’s about as clear and simple as you can get, with the basic stuff on the menu, and if you wanna expand from that, go for it. As I read the OP, it seemed like the fancy expensive stuff was listed, and not the normal basic stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Kimballkid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b5a626/32.png) [@Kimballkid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimballkid)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2014, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-we-now-keeping-the-menu-a-secret/681773/52 "2014-02-24T16:01:02Z")
I agree with **Manda JO** , if the menu is not clearly displayed at the store with prices listed for all these ‘secret’ items, it’s not straightforward and clear and efficient. If I’ve never been to an In-N-Out, I have no idea these things exist and I assume the website is not displayed on the wall at the store. If I order a triple cheese with onions, I want to know how much it costs before I order it and the simplest way to do that would be to display it on the menu at the store. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2014, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-we-now-keeping-the-menu-a-secret/681773/53 "2014-02-24T16:06:13Z")
I used to live in the middle of In-N-Out land, and was never impressed by their food. Slightly better burgers than most chains, but that’s about it. What did astonish me was the line of cars at the drive-through, any hour of the day or night. I used to joke that they came with the signage when a new one was built. The whole “secret menu” bushwah strikes me as an affectation for the crowd that stops at the adjacent Starbucks for their coffee-drinky to wash down their Secret Burger. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2014, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-we-now-keeping-the-menu-a-secret/681773/54 "2014-02-24T16:17:12Z")
> [@Kimballkid](#): > > I agree with **Manda JO** , if the menu is not clearly displayed at the store with prices listed for all these ‘secret’ items, it’s not straightforward and clear and efficient. If I’ve never been to an In-N-Out, I have no idea these things exist and I assume the website is not displayed on the wall at the store. If I order a triple cheese with onions, I want to know how much it costs before I order it and the simplest way to do that would be to display it on the menu at the store. OK, I guess I’m the only one who is not bothered by it and finds it pretty straightforward. I personally don’t need to know those custom/“secret” items exist. In N Out is giving me very simple, cheap, basic options. You’d think that if they wanted to make money, they’d be pushing “double double Animal style” on their menus and leaving off the simple hamburgers and cheeseburgers. Like I said before, I can do exactly the same thing at my ma and pop burger stand. There’s plenty more options than are on the actual menu if you feel inclined to customize it. What irritates me are “real” secret menus. There’s one burger place here in Chicago that has a great shrimp po’ boy, but you have to know that information, as nothing about the place even suggests they make shrimp po boys. God, do I wish I lived within even a day’s driving distance of In N Out. This is making me hungry. ---
**Author:** ![Spud](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spud/32/347_2.png) [@Spud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spud)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2014, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-we-now-keeping-the-menu-a-secret/681773/55 "2014-02-24T17:13:27Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > God, do I wish I lived within even a day’s driving distance of In N Out. This is making me hungry. If you are really that desperate then you are in luck (sort of). Just three hours from Chicago is 96th Street Steakburgers in Indy. Opened by a couple of California guys who couldn’t live without their In N Out burgers. I’ve only been to an In N Out once many years ago but it seems the same to me, and many west coast transplants swear it is as good as the real deal. They even have the “secret” menu (but they call it Monster style). [http://www.96thstreetsteakburgers.com/](http://www.96thstreetsteakburgers.com/) ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2014, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-we-now-keeping-the-menu-a-secret/681773/56 "2014-02-24T17:41:12Z")
> [@Spud](#): > > If you are really that desperate then you are in luck (sort of). Just three hours from Chicago is 96th Street Steakburgers in Indy. Opened by a couple of California guys who couldn’t live without their In N Out burgers. I’ve only been to an In N Out once many years ago but it seems the same to me, and many west coast transplants swear it is as good as the real deal. They even have the “secret” menu (but they call it Monster style). > > [http://www.96thstreetsteakburgers.com/](http://www.96thstreetsteakburgers.com/) Ooo! I’ll have to check that out next time I’m in the neighborhood. There’s a place here that has burgers modeled somewhat after In n Out, but they’re grilled, which I don’t like so much for burgers. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2014, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-we-now-keeping-the-menu-a-secret/681773/57 "2014-02-24T17:41:14Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > OK, I guess I’m the only one who is not bothered by it and finds it pretty straightforward. I personally don’t need to know those custom/“secret” items exist. It gets worse than INO’s, you know. In Sacramento, for example, there is a fairly upscale New York-style restaurant whose menu has about six unappealing entries - liver and onions, blah fish, blah chop, pasta primavera, etc. The “real” menu is delivered verbally and can have eight or ten rather complex signature items on it. I guess it’s some weird form of classy, but it’s not a lot different from standing in a busy McD’s line and searching frantically for something you really want amid the big-ticket promo items. You can’t think about your choices, you probably can’t remember more than one or two, and it makes ordering for a table of four to six an excruciating period of listening to the waitron reel off the list and answer questions over and over again.The food was excellent, but I remember more than one night that some plurality of us had the same dish because it was too much work to listen through the list yet again. I can’t say how this process worked on their bottom line, but in fast food, burying all the regular and lower-price items certainly jacks their profits, day in and day out. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2014, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-we-now-keeping-the-menu-a-secret/681773/58 "2014-02-24T18:09:07Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > It gets worse than INO’s, you know. Well, yeah, but we were discussing In n Out and I was saying why it doesn’t bother me, but then I did give an example where “secret” menus are annoying: like when they are not simply names for particular custom orders but when they’re truly items you would not figure out a restaurant is selling unless you know about them. Like the shrimp po boy in the hot dog & burger shop. > [@](#): > > In Sacramento, for example, there is a fairly upscale New York-style restaurant whose menu has about six unappealing entries - liver and onions, blah fish, blah chop, pasta primavera, etc. The “real” menu is delivered verbally and can have eight or ten rather complex signature items on it. I may or may not find that annoying (and a good liver and onions is amazing, and if it’s on their permanent menu, I would assume they do a good job of it). I like restaurants that have a core menu and a rotating list of specials. If it’s really eight or ten deep, that’s a lot and annoying for not being printed or put on a whiteboard or something. But I’m fine with three or four verbal specials. True “signature” items that are available every day should be on the permanent menu, though, not the verbal specials menu. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-we-now-keeping-the-menu-a-secret/681773.md?page=2)