# Why are we now spelling it Kyiv? **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [October 18, 2019, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-we-now-spelling-it-kyiv/841932 "2019-10-18T03:18:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![The\_Stafford\_Cripps](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_stafford_cripps/32/7167_2.png) [@The\_Stafford\_Cripps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Stafford_Cripps)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2019, 11:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-we-now-spelling-it-kyiv/841932/41 "2019-10-19T11:23:07Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > (1) Mostly because we shouldn’t be taking orders on spelling or language usage from any government but also (2) because we shouldn’t be taking instructions on spelling from a government that doesn’t have sovereignty over us, because we shouldn’t be subject to a foreign government’s restrictions or preferences in general, and (3) we should not recognize an entity primarily existing in a context governed by non-English languages as an authority on usage of the English language, and (5) we should not change English usage based on non-English language factors generally, and (5) we should not be ironing out differences between languages generally. I don’t like nor want uniformity among languages. This makes little to no sense. What ‘orders’ have been issued? Why is respecting someone’s preference being seen as being ‘subject’ to them? What the hell has sovereignty got to do with such a minor issue? What is it that you’re so terrified of? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2019, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-we-now-spelling-it-kyiv/841932/42 "2019-10-19T13:44:22Z")
> [@The\_Stafford\_Cripps](#): > > This makes little to no sense. What ‘orders’ have been issued? Why is respecting someone’s preference being seen as being ‘subject’ to them? What the hell has sovereignty got to do with such a minor issue? What is it that you’re so terrified of? This. Nobody came knocking at my door warning me of dire penalties if I ever try to spell Kyiv “Kiev” again. Nobody’s telling me how I may or may not spell that name. All that’s happening is that some governmental and non-governmental entities are voluntarily agreeing upon a version of that name as the default spelling. So what? The pantswetting about “being subject to a foreign government” is just silly. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2019, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-we-now-spelling-it-kyiv/841932/43 "2019-10-19T15:28:54Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > We shouldn’t be changing the spelling based on the the preferences of the government of Ukraine. Unless, of course, there’s something in it for us. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2019, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-we-now-spelling-it-kyiv/841932/44 "2019-10-19T17:06:17Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > (1) Mostly because we shouldn’t be taking orders on spelling or language usage from any government but also (2) because we shouldn’t be taking instructions on spelling from a government that doesn’t have sovereignty over us, because we shouldn’t be subject to a foreign government’s restrictions or preferences in general, and (3) we should not recognize an entity primarily existing in a context governed by non-English languages as an authority on usage of the English language, and (5) we should not change English usage based on non-English language factors generally, and (5) we should not be ironing out differences between languages generally. I don’t like nor want uniformity among languages. Could we do it not because we’re “taking orders,” but because it’s just polite to call people by the name they want to be called? Do you think we should continue to call it “The Ukraine” as well? ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2019, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-we-now-spelling-it-kyiv/841932/45 "2019-10-19T19:40:07Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > Simply copying off of Wikipedia, many English spellings have been in use, including Kiou, Kiow, Kiiow, Kiew, Kiovia, Kiev, Kyiv, Kyyiv, Kyjiv, Kyjev, take your pick. [Kief ND](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kief,_North_Dakota) was named for the city under discussion. > [@Miller](#): > > Could we do it not because we’re “taking orders,” but because it’s just polite to call people by the name they want to be called? > > Do you think we should continue to call it “The Ukraine” as well? The government of Czechia wants everyone to use that name, rather than Czech Republic, but for some reason, few people are doing it. Not sure why it’s different than this case, but it seems to be. ---
**Author:** ![Corry\_El](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecae2f/32.png) [@Corry\_El](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corry_El)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2019, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-we-now-spelling-it-kyiv/841932/46 "2019-10-19T20:08:04Z")
> [@dtilque](#): > > The government of Czechia wants everyone to use that name, rather than Czech Republic, but for some reason, few people are doing it. Not sure why it’s different than this case, but it seems to be. Again I think it’s different in that Russia’s policy is to treat Ukraine as other than a fully sovereign country so stuff like using the ‘The Ukraine’ or the transliteration of the Russian Cyrillic spelling of Kiev, rather than transliterating the Ukrainian Cyrillic spelling Kyiv, is understandably more sensitive to Ukrainians. Those semantic details are perceived as being connected to a life and death issue, though obviously not one directly. Czechia is more of a suggested convenience, which is appealing to me actually, shorter. But people on the Czech side I guess don’t care as much, and it’s a small country in a moderately tense area, not a medium size country undergoing a quasi-invasion by a nuclear armed neighbor, so outsiders don’t care as much. ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2019, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-we-now-spelling-it-kyiv/841932/47 "2019-10-19T21:16:01Z")
> [@Corry\_El](#): > > Czechia is more of a suggested convenience, which is appealing to me actually, shorter. But people on the Czech side I guess don’t care as much, and it’s a small country in a moderately tense area, not a medium size country undergoing a quasi-invasion by a nuclear armed neighbor, so outsiders don’t care as much. For some reason, I don’t think geopolitical issues should be a factor in this kind of thing. And I could name a number of other such changes where, as far as I can tell, they weren’t. Yet we made the changes anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2019, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-we-now-spelling-it-kyiv/841932/48 "2019-10-19T21:40:22Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > One has an E, making the sound as in b **e** t, while the other has an I, making the sound as in b **i** t. So it’s kee-YEV (old) vs. kee-YIV (new). > > That said, the original Ukrainian appears to be kih-YEEV, except that the V sounds more like a W. At least, if Wikipedia is correct in using [ˈkɪjiu̯]. I unfortunately was unable to quickly find a good video of an actual Ukrainian saying the city’s name. Some American dialects say “bit” and “bet” exactly the same. I had a friend named Wells who grew up in Atlanta and he pronounced his own name as “Wales” while his “bit” and “bet” were identical. From now on you all have to pronounce the capital of France as “Paree”. Incidentally, in French (at least in Quebec French), there is a city in Ontario named London, while the capital of the UK is Londres (pronounced Londre, somewhat like laundry). And the city in Ontario has a river running through pronounced Thames, not Tems. This whole discussion seems pointless to me. People will pronounce things the way they will. ---
**Author:** ![carrps](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carrps/32/2957_2.png) [@carrps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carrps)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2019, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-we-now-spelling-it-kyiv/841932/49 "2019-10-19T21:54:52Z")
I still remember an old Candid Camera episode where Allen Funt was asking some guy somewhere in the South to say “all” and “oil.” They sounded identical. ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2019, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-we-now-spelling-it-kyiv/841932/50 "2019-10-20T00:00:26Z")
Did something similar happen with Bombay/Mumbai, or is that more of an Istanbul/Constantinople thing? ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2019, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-we-now-spelling-it-kyiv/841932/51 "2019-10-20T02:38:45Z")
If you think pronunciation transcends boundaries, go visit Cairo, IL, and see what happens. Or, perhaps more to the point, ask a Japanese person to pronounce the names of most of the capitals of Europe. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-we-now-spelling-it-kyiv/841932.md?page=2)