I find it interesting that the absurd sounding Leghorn has been dropped in favour of Livorno whereas the aforementioned and Roma remain Anglicised. I think it’s more that the latter are better known than the absurdity though 
I think it’s a mainly the difference between how they it’s spelled (and pronounced) in Ukrainian (Київ) v Russian (Ки́ев). At least as to the key ‘iv’ v ‘ev’. So it’s not like Peking v. Beijing which is mainly two different ways to write 北京 in Latin letters, though also potentially due to a different dialectic pronunciation heard by French missionaries who came up with ‘Peking’ than modern Mandarin. Whereas 부산 as Pusan or Busan is strictly a transliteration rules thing; no difference in ‘native’ pronunciation enters into the equation at all.
As with all these discussions insistence that English speakers/writers, and it is English speakers particularly*, spell stuff a more ‘native’ way is not in pursuit of some uniform rule. The general thrust I believe is that if English is the de facto international language, it should itself be internationalized more. And the specific cases which non-English speakers really push generally have some political aspect. With Ukraine it’s the leader of Russia on record saying ‘it’s not a really a country, George’ and later acting on that belief. So naturally there’s sensitivity to ‘The Ukraine’ (the borderland [of Russia]) and English using the transliteration of the Russian spelling of Kiev.
*Chinese are much less likely to complain about people writing Pékin in French than Peking being written in English, and on and on.
In 99 cases out of 100, we wouldn’t be able to if we tried. Personally, I’d rather people didn’t mangle words that use sounds that don’t exist in their language. An American trying - and failing - to pronounce “Yerushalayim” is far more offensive to me than one who just says “Jerusalem.”
I much prefer Mao T’se Tung to Mao Zedong. And the change happened years after Mao had died, so it wasn’t like he was the one complaining T’se Tung was wrong.
So why aren’t we pronouncing Mexico “Mey-hico”, huh? Tell me that! Why don’t we call Germany Deutschland?
Stuff like this pisses me off.
well, it was China who led the change when they made Hanyu Pinyin the “official” way to Romanize Chinese words, replacing the old Wade-Giles method.
The government of China can only make things “official” for entities and people subject to the control of the government of China. Its not official for anyone else. The government of China and the government of the Ukraine don’t own the English language. Neither does the government of the United States for that matter.
well if this is what you think is important
English uber alles!
Why not?
(1) Mostly because we shouldn’t be taking orders on spelling or language usage from any government but also (2) because we shouldn’t be taking instructions on spelling from a government that doesn’t have sovereignty over us, because we shouldn’t be subject to a foreign government’s restrictions or preferences in general, and (3) we should not recognize an entity primarily existing in a context governed by non-English languages as an authority on usage of the English language, and (5) we should not change English usage based on non-English language factors generally, and (5) we should not be ironing out differences between languages generally. I don’t like nor want uniformity among languages.
Upthread it was implied that Kyiv was closer to the Ukranian pronunciation of the city’s name than Kiev. I would tend to pronounce them both the same. So how do the pronunciations of Kyiv and Kiev differ?
And btw I am not at all familiar with the phonetic symbols used by linguists, so try to explain it without them if you can.
That’s no-one’s business but the Turks’.
Cities aren’t people, but the same reasoning does apply: it’s polite to use the name people want you to use. For a person, you’re being polite to that person. For a city, you’re being polite to the people of that city.
Germany clearly doesn’t care that we don’t say Deuchland. But Ukraine cares, so we politely change it. Just like we did when they requested us not to use “the Ukraine.” It’s part of them asserting their independence from Russia.
Just because some countries don’t mind what exonym we use doesn’t mean none of them do. We use Beijing, after all, and we’re not exactly friendly with China.
One has an E, making the sound as in bet, while the other has an I, making the sound as in bit. So it’s kee-YEV (old) vs. kee-YIV (new).
That said, the original Ukrainian appears to be kih-YEEV, except that the V sounds more like a W. At least, if Wikipedia is correct in using [ˈkɪjiu̯]. I unfortunately was unable to quickly find a good video of an actual Ukrainian saying the city’s name.
Yeah, Kyiv in Ukrainian is a little difficult for English speakers, the yeev sound is kind of drawn out and emphasized. I studied Russian, but I’ve spent a lot of time in Kyiv, it’s a great city no matter what you call it.
Transliterating is an inexact art. Common sounds in one language are uncommon in another. Some alphabets have characters for sounds that are not in other alphabets.
To an English speaker, it sounds something like “kay-you” or “key-you.”
Not sure where you are getting that, or that “Kiev” and “Kyiv” are supposed to be pronounced differently in English, rather than being a spelling variation. Or that there is stress on the second syllable.
Original 5th century Ukrainian?
Simply copying off of Wikipedia, many English spellings have been in use, including Kiou, Kiow, Kiiow, Kiew, Kiovia, Kiev, Kyiv, Kyyiv, Kyjiv, Kyjev, take your pick.
Spelling, to be sure, but— feel free to judge for yourself from the audio clips— if the Ukrainians wanted to push for a more authentic local pronunciation, going back to Kiou or Kiow seems closer.