# Why are we wasting money on flyovers?! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 12, 2020, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-we-wasting-money-on-flyovers/853651 "2020-05-12T17:15:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Cartooniverse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cartooniverse/32/3084_2.png) [@Cartooniverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartooniverse)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2020, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-we-wasting-money-on-flyovers/853651/61 "2020-05-13T17:13:19Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Have you ever flown in formation? > [@Ravenman](#): > > Why yes; both as pilot within 50’ of another single engine fixed gear plane and in the back of an F-16 when doing a formation landing at Andrews within maybe 15’. Your point…? Ahhhhhh, the ritualistic comparative display of the turgid penises commences. I love this part. Jesus Christ in a sidecar… ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2020, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-we-wasting-money-on-flyovers/853651/62 "2020-05-13T19:28:01Z")
Rest assured that he quite literally asked to see it, and it would be rude to not oblige. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2020, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-we-wasting-money-on-flyovers/853651/63 "2020-05-13T20:59:14Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > So we need the flyovers so the pilots who do them can keep their skills sharp so they can do flyovers. No, we need them to practice their flight skills. Flyovers, particularly in formation, are something they can do to both hone their skills AND entertain the masses. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2020, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-we-wasting-money-on-flyovers/853651/64 "2020-05-13T21:02:58Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > I’m saying there’s better ways to spend money that provide substantially more benefit to the pilots. Nobody can seem to address that criticism. By all means, please enlighten us to those ways. Please delineate the skills you think these pilots should practice and the most cost-effective means for doing so. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2020, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-we-wasting-money-on-flyovers/853651/65 "2020-05-13T21:11:31Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > By all means, please enlighten us to those ways. Please delineate the skills you think these pilots should practice and the most cost-effective means for doing so. First, perhaps you can enlighten us as to the specific ACC proficiency requirements that flyovers satisfy. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2020, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-we-wasting-money-on-flyovers/853651/66 "2020-05-13T21:44:07Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > No, we need them to practice their flight skills. Flyovers, particularly in formation, are something they can do to both hone their skills AND entertain the masses. But if we didn’t have the flyovers, then we wouldn’t need the units that do them or the pilots that do the flyovers. As for the pilots in other units, they can keep their skills sharp by bombing brown people, the thing we must never think about while watching flyovers, that this is all a huge commercial for the military industrial complex. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2020, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-we-wasting-money-on-flyovers/853651/67 "2020-05-13T22:09:21Z")
Well, can we all agree that [maybe having passenger jets do a low-altitude flyby over Manhattan was a little tone-deaf?](https://www.washingtonpost.com/travel/2020/05/07/jetblue-attempts-front-line-worker-salute-with-nyc-flyover-receives-harsh-backlash/) ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2020, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-we-wasting-money-on-flyovers/853651/68 "2020-05-13T22:43:19Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > First, perhaps you can enlighten us as to the specific ACC proficiency requirements that flyovers satisfy. I’ve already stated I’m no authority on this, but you seem to know quite a bit about these things - you go first. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2020, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-we-wasting-money-on-flyovers/853651/69 "2020-05-13T22:58:42Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > I’ve already stated I’m no authority on this, but you seem to know quite a bit about these things - you go first. What about having them use their scarce flight hours in training areas where they can do the full range of their maneuvers? I mean, it’s a shocking idea to do training when training is needed… ETA: now I’m waiting to hear an argument that it’s a bad idea for them to practice all their maneuvers in a training area, because… uhm… too dangerous? Not enough dangerous? Not enough cool? Need more practice in making five slow turns during a 40 minute flyover, not a whole bunch more exercises during the same time? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2020, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-we-wasting-money-on-flyovers/853651/70 "2020-05-14T02:56:52Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Rest assured that he quite literally asked to see it, and it would be rude to not oblige. And you quite literally confessed to never having flown a plane in formation. Not only do you not understand how difficult it is but you ignored a cited quote from a Blue Angel pilot who explained it. It’s very demanding. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2020, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-we-wasting-money-on-flyovers/853651/71 "2020-05-14T03:03:12Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > What about having them use their scarce flight hours in training areas where they can do the full range of their maneuvers? > > I mean, it’s a shocking idea to do training when training is needed… > > ETA: now I’m waiting to hear an argument that it’s a bad idea for them to practice all their maneuvers in a training area, because… uhm… too dangerous? Not enough dangerous? Not enough cool? Need more practice in making five slow turns during a 40 minute flyover, not a whole bunch more exercises during the same time? the training area for their shows are the airports the shows are at. They literally plan their flights around the airport layout. They arrive days before the show and rehearse the show based on the landmarks they choose to form up on. There is virtually no other way to do it. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2020, 9:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-we-wasting-money-on-flyovers/853651/72 "2020-05-14T09:02:14Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > What about having them use their scarce flight hours in training areas where they can do the full range of their maneuvers? What maneuvers do you think they’re doing that can’t be done during their air shows? Or over a city? Or near a city as the case may be because, in fact, during airshows in Chicago (and other cities in the US) they’re doing the “stunty” stuff over Lake Michigan and not directly over the buildings because accidents happen sometimes even to the best and better it’s over the water than over the Loop. > [@Ravenman](#): > > ETA: now I’m waiting to hear an argument that it’s a bad idea for them to practice all their maneuvers in a training area, because… uhm… too dangerous? Not enough dangerous? Not enough cool? Need more practice in making five slow turns during a 40 minute flyover, not a whole bunch more exercises during the same time? First, why do you assume they _don’t_ do some training over “training areas”? Second, I think like a lot of people you assume that flying fast or doing some of the visibly flashy maneuvers is the hard part of flying. It’s not. It’s actually harder to fly well at a slow speed than a fast speed. It’s harder to fly low (especially with obstacles like building and landscape features around) that to fly high. I also suspect you have zero idea where “military airspace” is located. It’s surprisingly common. Back when I was actively flying I used to transit military airspace fairly frequently (for civilians, you contact military ATC and say “can I fly this route through your space?” and they usually say “Yes”. Sometimes they say “no”, in which case it really is a good idea to heed that, otherwise you risk being run over by military hardware. It’s not rocket science except, of course, when rockets actually are involved.) I would certainly welcome a discussion of whether or not these flyovers improve morale or make people angry, but you seem focused on the fact these demonstration teams are practicing at all, and don’t seem to have a grasp of what actually is in important in training flights. ---
**Author:** ![Balthisar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/balthisar/32/2825_2.png) [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2020, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-we-wasting-money-on-flyovers/853651/73 "2020-05-14T11:39:38Z")
Why are we calling this training? This isn’t training; this is execution. Training is what they do to get ready for these shows. Executing their job is a performance. And there’s nothing wrong with that. The military needs people to execute its larger mission, and this is a perfectly cromulent recruiting tool. Are there better things to spend money on? Undoubtedly there are, and undoubtedly we’re already spending money on them. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2020, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-we-wasting-money-on-flyovers/853651/74 "2020-05-14T11:44:47Z")
It’s called training because there are basically only two types of activity for the military: 1-combat, and 2-training. This isn’t combat. Regarding the OP: what a load of nonsense! Look, the military, like any other organization which needs people to join it, relies on recruitment. Military aircraft performing in those shows helps with recruitment. It’s the same reason the military helps with some movies. Those movies help the military get people to join. Think of _Top Gun_ as an example. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2020, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-we-wasting-money-on-flyovers/853651/75 "2020-05-14T12:01:04Z")
> [@Reply](#): > > Just, in context, the feds are fucking up in every other possible way, and THIS is what they’ve managed to coordinate while thousands die?. Actually, there is nothing special in their coordination that isn’t going on all the time anyways - they always plan for a certain number of outings for airshows, and a certain number of training hours doing the various formations they may or will be called upon to perform. While people don’t think formation flying is important, think back to WW2 … formation flying is how one carpet bombs a moderately wide area efficiently - you have to trust the pilots in your wing to be where they need to be getting there, flying over the target zone and then retreating back to home base. Granted, the fancy barrel rolls and inverted stunting is just getting fancy, BUT and this is a huge freaking but you have to know every aspect of flying your particular type of airplane intimately, what it can do, what it can’t do and what the hell do you do if this widget breaks and flips you, how do you flip back and accomodate the breakage … and that takes flight hours doing funky shit over empty land with your wing. You do hours of touch and go landing/takeoffs - those arent’ for fun. Though if you are riding along as a guest, some of the boring training moves can be thrilling [Dated a helo pilot who told me after the fact that they love to get the new girlfriends of the flight crew and put them in the copilot seat and fly contours to see how long it takes to get her to scream =) Unfortunately for them, my parents both had licenses and we had a plane while I was growing up so pretty much nothing in the air scares me, even going inverted. And generally, flying at pretty much full throttle a couple meters aboove the ground is pretty scary, like the worlds most military roller coaster ever=)] ---
**Author:** ![BlueOhio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/439d5e/32.png) [@BlueOhio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlueOhio)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2020, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-we-wasting-money-on-flyovers/853651/76 "2020-05-14T12:11:25Z")
If they do this enough, there’s more likely to be an accident that tumbles one or more jets to the earth, now more likely right into a hospital. So there’s that. ---
**Author:** ![Spiderman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spiderman/32/230_2.png) [@Spiderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiderman)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2020, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-we-wasting-money-on-flyovers/853651/77 "2020-05-14T12:21:22Z")
> [@Reply](#): > > Oh, hell. As pissed as I am about everything right now, I’m glad SOMEONE is getting a kick out of 'em. I’m not even against air shows in particular; in a regular year I might’ve even snuck a peek 🙂 Just, in context, the feds are fucking up in every other possible way, and THIS is what they’ve managed to coordinate while thousands die? It’s such an in-your-face, let-them-eat-cake moment. Just what America needs during a healthcare crisis, more jingoism! Even as a PR stunt, it backfired on me at least, but hey, I was clearly never the target audience. > > So go on, enjoy the show. Makes me feel a LITTLE better knowing some people actually appreciate it. Sigh. Now back to more mortal things like not flying planes and worrying about bills. The first cities had the Blue Angels & the Thunderbirds flying together; it’s rare to see them together. The fail was that since one can’t necessarily see them in the canyons of a city people went to open areas, parks & parking lots; which means the flyovers brought people out & therefore violated social distancing. > [@Magiver](#): > > the training area for their shows are the airports the shows are at. They literally plan their flights around the airport layout. They arrive days before the show and rehearse the show based on the landmarks they choose to form up on. There is virtually no other way to do it. Not exactly; the crowds are always in the ramp area & they fly down the orientation of the runway; whatever direction that may be. They also place objects, very typically full-sized yellow school buses in the grass next to the runway x meters from show center. _That_ is what is giving them the visual clue to start a particular maneuver. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2020, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-we-wasting-money-on-flyovers/853651/78 "2020-05-14T12:45:48Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > the training area for their shows are the airports the shows are at. They literally plan their flights around the airport layout. They arrive days before the show and rehearse the show based on the landmarks they choose to form up on. There is virtually no other way to do it. More **Magiver** bullshit. They do rehearsals at the location of the air show, but the Thunderbirds are based at Nellis and do training flights on the Western Range. After all, their normal air show season is roughly April-October. What, you think they fly around to other cities the rest of the year for “training?” And for the Blue Angels, there’s actually an observation area established at Pensacola for the public to watch their training for air shows. You can see them do their things few times a week if you are lucky. Again, they don’t just fly around the country to conduct their training events. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2020, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-we-wasting-money-on-flyovers/853651/79 "2020-05-14T12:55:03Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > What maneuvers do you think they’re doing that can’t be done during their air shows? Or over a city? Or near a city as the case may be because, in fact, during airshows in Chicago (and other cities in the US) they’re doing the “stunty” stuff over Lake Michigan and not directly over the buildings because accidents happen sometimes even to the best and better it’s over the water than over the Loop. How dense are you? I said these flyovers are not good training because they aren’t doing the full range of their maneuvers. I didn’t say they don’t do their maneuvers during actual air shows. Fuck, do I have to draw a picture for you? > [@](#): > > First, why do you assume they _don’t_ do some training over “training areas”? Go see my response to **Magiver**. I’m starting to worry you have short term memory issues, since your attention to what I write rivals the concentration of a goldfish. > [@](#): > > Second, I think like a lot of people you assume that flying fast or doing some of the visibly flashy maneuvers is the hard part of flying. It’s not. It’s actually harder to fly well at a slow speed than a fast speed. It’s harder to fly low (especially with obstacles like building and landscape features around) that to fly high. ”People like me” who have a pilots license? Just like you? > [@](#): > > I also suspect you have zero idea where “military airspace” is located. It’s surprisingly common. Back when I was actively flying I used to transit military airspace fairly frequently (for civilians, you contact military ATC and say “can I fly this route through your space?” and they usually say “Yes”. Sometimes they say “no”, in which case it really is a good idea to heed that, otherwise you risk being run over by military hardware. It’s not rocket science except, of course, when rockets actually are involved.) Yeah, I know all about MOAs, restricted, prohibited airspace, and temporary flight restrictions. I also make occasional visits to both training and test ranges. I’m betting I have been to ranges you’ve never heard of, so don’t talk to me like I’m five. > [@](#): > > I would certainly welcome a discussion of whether or not these flyovers improve morale or make people angry, but you seem focused on the fact these demonstration teams are practicing at all, and don’t seem to have a grasp of what actually is in important in training flights. I’ll gladly pay you for a couple of wet hours so you can hop in your SEL and fly away from this thread. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2020, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-we-wasting-money-on-flyovers/853651/80 "2020-05-14T16:23:24Z")
> [@aruvqan](#): > > Actually, there is nothing special in their coordination that isn’t going on all the time anyways - they always plan for a certain number of outings for airshows, and a certain number of training hours doing the various formations they may or will be called upon to perform. > > While people don’t think formation flying is important, think back to WW2 … formation flying is how one carpet bombs a moderately wide area efficiently - you have to trust the pilots in your wing to be where they need to be getting there, flying over the target zone and then retreating back to home base. Granted, the fancy barrel rolls and inverted stunting is just getting fancy, BUT and this is a huge freaking but you have to know every aspect of flying your particular type of airplane intimately, what it can do, what it can’t do and what the hell do you do if this widget breaks and flips you, how do you flip back and accomodate the breakage … and that takes flight hours doing funky shit over empty land with your wing. You do hours of touch and go landing/takeoffs - those arent’ for fun. Though if you are riding along as a guest, some of the boring training moves can be thrilling [Dated a helo pilot who told me after the fact that they love to get the new girlfriends of the flight crew and put them in the copilot seat and fly contours to see how long it takes to get her to scream =) Unfortunately for them, my parents both had licenses and we had a plane while I was growing up so pretty much nothing in the air scares me, even going inverted. And generally, flying at pretty much full throttle a couple meters aboove the ground is pretty scary, like the worlds most military roller coaster ever=)] As regards the formation flying, do they get better MPG doing that? If a group of planes are on a long mission, then trading off the lead and the drafting planes could extend their range. Is that actually something that is considered, or is that too insignificant a fuel savings for it to really make a difference? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-we-wasting-money-on-flyovers/853651.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-we-wasting-money-on-flyovers/853651.md?page=5)