# Why Are Wolves Good "Husbands" & Dads, But Not Domesticated Dogs? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 8, 2004, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-wolves-good-husbands-dads-but-not-domesticated-dogs/278744 "2004-12-08T14:30:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2004, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-wolves-good-husbands-dads-but-not-domesticated-dogs/278744/1 "2004-12-08T14:30:20Z")
I realize that domesticated dogs are not juts wolves by a different name, but so many of their pack behaviors are the same that I’m wondering abnout one area in which behaviors are very different. A male wolf is pretty devoted to his mate, and brings her and the pups food while they’re still confined to their den. And after the pups are old enough to move around, he plays with them and dotes on them. Male domestic dogs, on the other hand, take no interest in the females they impregnate and no interest in raising their puppies. Any obvious biological reason for the difference in paternal behavior? ---
**Author:** ![scule](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4af34b/32.png) [@scule](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scule)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2004, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-wolves-good-husbands-dads-but-not-domesticated-dogs/278744/2 "2004-12-08T14:42:46Z")
While I am no expert by any means on dogs (and don’t really like them anyway), I would imagine the reason is because of breeding. Just about every dog we have today is human-created, in the sense that they would not exist as they do without humans having bred them to look/act the way they do. Since they’re domesticated, and thus cared for by humans, they have no need to be devoted mates. In fact, I could see this trait being either completely ignored when selecting dogs for breeding, or even actively bred out, so as to avoid excessive attachment of a dog to a mate. Since they are so often mated as a means to an end for human purposes, rather than for natural reasons, I’d bet money on this reasoning. ---
**Author:** ![ZipperJJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zipperjj/32/211_2.png) [@ZipperJJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZipperJJ)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2004, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-wolves-good-husbands-dads-but-not-domesticated-dogs/278744/3 "2004-12-08T15:28:46Z")
This is just a WAG too (but I’m a dog lover…) but domestic dogs aren’t supposed to be alpha dogs in a pack (this is how you are supposed to control your dog). Their pack includes everyone in their household. In my household we’ve got 4 adults and one female dog. My dad is the alpha dog in our pack. I would suspect that if we had a male dog, he’d expect my dad to get food for the puppy. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2004, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-wolves-good-husbands-dads-but-not-domesticated-dogs/278744/4 "2004-12-08T15:35:00Z")
Because they learn how to be fathers from their human owners? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Futile\_Gesture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f05b48/32.png) [@Futile\_Gesture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Futile_Gesture)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2004, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-wolves-good-husbands-dads-but-not-domesticated-dogs/278744/5 "2004-12-08T15:50:11Z")
Can we get some quotes around that “Good” in the OP title please? Otherwise we’re just indulging in anthropomorphism. What’s ‘good’ for humans doesn’t necessarily apply to other species. Domesticated dogs are an example of arrested development. They are docile to humans because they never truly ‘grow up’. As **ZipperJJ** says; they are never the alpha adult male (or at least aren’t in a healthy human/pet relationship). Their behaviour as parents may reflect this. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2004, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-wolves-good-husbands-dads-but-not-domesticated-dogs/278744/6 "2004-12-08T16:23:42Z")
Do we know that feral dogs don’t revert to a wolf-like social structure? ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2004, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-wolves-good-husbands-dads-but-not-domesticated-dogs/278744/7 "2004-12-08T16:44:55Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > Do we know that feral dogs don’t revert to a wolf-like social structure? I would suppose that they do. Most animals that form groups have a “pecking order.” ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2004, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-wolves-good-husbands-dads-but-not-domesticated-dogs/278744/8 "2004-12-08T16:50:51Z")
> [@Futile Gesture](#): > > Can we get some quotes around that “Good” in the OP title please? Otherwise we’re just indulging in anthropomorphism. What’s ‘good’ for humans doesn’t necessarily apply to other species. > > Domesticated dogs are an example of arrested development. They are docile to humans because they never truly ‘grow up’. As **ZipperJJ** says; they are never the alpha adult male (or at least aren’t in a healthy human/pet relationship). Their behaviour as parents may reflect this. What Futile Gesture said. Dogs as a whole have been extensively bred for targeted traits, one of which are neoteny (non-mature) characteristics which are critical to enable a dog to be reliably domesticated. [Wolves](http://users3.ev1.net/~pamthompson/identification1.htm) > [@](#): > > (Behavior) > It is important to study the behavioral characteristics of both wolves and the type of dog(s) used in the breeding in order to understand your wolfdog. All dogs, especially northern breeds, have some wolf-like behavioral characteristics. > > As a general rule, the behavior of wolves can be more intense than most dog breeds because they mature beyond dogs. It is assumed that wolves chosen to be the founding stock for dogs were those animals that retained a juvenile behavior into adulthood. Therefore, this is probably one of the characteristics man selected in order to have a more easily managed animal. Breeding for juvenile characteristics is known as neoteny. The basic principal of neoteny is to select animals that retain juvenile behavioral characteristics into adulthood and then try to reproduce that behavior within the line. This juvenile behavior causes dogs to be friendlier and more dependent upon man. However, most wolves will mentally mature past this juvenile phase. Therefore, the behavior of a wolf can be more intense and less easily dealt with than that of the average dog. ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Tan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/charlie_tan/32/12582_2.png) [@Charlie\_Tan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Tan)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2004, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-wolves-good-husbands-dads-but-not-domesticated-dogs/278744/9 "2004-12-08T16:51:48Z")
And I think the noble wolf is a myth as well. To say that he dotes on the pups is quite a stretch. I think Jack London has a lot to answer to here. Do you have a better cite that wolves act like this? ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2004, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-wolves-good-husbands-dads-but-not-domesticated-dogs/278744/10 "2004-12-08T22:45:50Z")
Just a guess: Male dogs don’t have contact with their offspring because they are forcibly confined and physically prevented from doing so. Or is there some evidence that we are _only_ talking about dogs that live in the same household as their mates? A lot of dogs mate in secret when they escape from the house, and may never see their mate again. ---
**Author:** ![phaishazamkhan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f05b48/32.png) [@phaishazamkhan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/phaishazamkhan)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2004, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-wolves-good-husbands-dads-but-not-domesticated-dogs/278744/11 "2004-12-09T00:22:22Z")
From what I recall from The Hidden Life of Dogs, the difference between wolves and dogs is the fact that dogs are merely puppies in a grownup body. Humans have raised and conditioned them in such a fashion over the millennia. ---
**Author:** ![wevets](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9a140/32.png) [@wevets](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wevets)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2004, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-wolves-good-husbands-dads-but-not-domesticated-dogs/278744/12 "2004-12-09T16:42:44Z")
I can’t claim to know the answer to the OP’s question, but a lot of posts have focused on the breeding of domestic dogs. Breeding could be the answer, or a part of the answer, but we should also consider alternative explanations related to nurture. There is another explanation (a couple ;), in fact) for the mating relationships in domestic dogs. One is that, being raised among humans, they do not learn the necessary behaviors of parental care. What about dogs who live with humans that care well for human mates and babies, you say? It would be interesting to compare them to other dogs, but seeing humans do human parental care may be insufficient to trigger faithful parental care in a dog. A second nurture-based explanation is that mating relationship could be effected by scarcity of resources. A domesticated dog lives a life with far more reliable food sources than wolves do. Perhaps if you took wolves into an environment where food was as easily available and reliable, their mating behavior would change. Another resource that might be scarce for domesticated dogs but not wolves could be time to devote to mates and offspring. A dog’s human masters might impose demands or constraints on its time that force it to adopt a different mating pattern. Experiments with domesticated dogs placed in a wild wolf-like situation would be interesting. ---
**Author:** ![scotandrsn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a4c791/32.png) [@scotandrsn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scotandrsn)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2004, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-wolves-good-husbands-dads-but-not-domesticated-dogs/278744/13 "2004-12-09T17:18:16Z")
Actually, I’m not so sure the impression of dogs given in the OP is universally correct. When we picked our golden retreiver from its litter at the breeder, the only parent in attendance was the father dog. He was attentive to the pups, played gently with them all afternoon, broke up squabbles, etc. and over all seemed very concerned for their activities and welfare. The picture of what I’d call a “good father”. I think perhaps some breeds (and certainly some mutts) have had this quality bred out of them.