# Why are you pro choice or pro life? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 1, 2021, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-you-pro-choice-or-pro-life/949904 "2021-09-01T14:48:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2021, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-you-pro-choice-or-pro-life/949904/261 "2021-09-10T18:16:47Z")
If you follow the quote arrows upthread a bit, you will see this particular tangent is specifically about the bible. (you quoted me, I quoted **HMS\_Irruncible** , who quoted me quoting the bible.) ~Max ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2021, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-you-pro-choice-or-pro-life/949904/262 "2021-09-10T18:19:38Z")
Ah. I see your point. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2021, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-you-pro-choice-or-pro-life/949904/263 "2021-09-10T20:51:18Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > I’m not completely convinced newborns are really people, just yet. But I’m not sure they aren’t, either. And at any rate, they are damn close to becoming unambiguously human beings. (And they aren’t parasites inside someone’s body, either.) Many religious and cultural traditions, such as the bris, only welcome newborns into humanity a couple of days after birth, no doubt because of the high number of babies who died right after birth. Someplace, it might have been here, I read something about names being reused when the first owner of that name died early. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2021, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-you-pro-choice-or-pro-life/949904/264 "2021-09-10T21:45:57Z")
> [@Railer13](#): > > > [@UltraVires](#): > > > > How is this different than a two year old child > > Obviously you’ve never been a parent. A two year old child can decide to drink her milk, or not. A two year old child can decide to sleep at naptime, or not. A two year old child can decide to color on the wall, or not. _Nods_ Hell, a two year old can give you her _reasons_ for any of the above. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2021, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-you-pro-choice-or-pro-life/949904/265 "2021-09-10T21:48:52Z")
> [@Railer13](#): > > Obviously you’ve never been a parent. A two year old child can decide to drink her milk, or not. A two year old child can decide to sleep at naptime, or not. A two year old child can decide to color on the wall, or not. I am a parent. A two year old can make these types of choices but cannot decide whether to purchase premium or 87 octane gasoline, or a bucket of fried chicken. I don’t think that any of us dispute that the maturity process is a continuum. I don’t know why it follows that before a person/entity/thing is mature enough to have free will that means it is okay to kill it. If anything, shouldn’t society protect that person/entity/thing more _precisely_ because it has not reached a level of maturity to survive on its own? That’s why the viability point has always confused me. You can kill the person/entity/thing prior to viability, but that is exactly when it needs protection the most. So I just don’t understand the entire line of thought. Most of us come from nothing, grow over 9 months plus 18 years to adulthood, have a good run, then decline in old age. Would you propose that at some time in old age before death we are no longer human? That seems to be the logical implication of this belief. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2021, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-you-pro-choice-or-pro-life/949904/266 "2021-09-10T22:13:28Z")
Most people retain volition until moments before their death. Even those who suffer severe dementia. This is not a high bar. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2021, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-you-pro-choice-or-pro-life/949904/267 "2021-09-10T22:31:54Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > What I find hard to reconcile is how anti-abortion activists simplify the issue, as if the entire discussion centers around whether a fetus has a heartbeat or not. It’s no accident that so much of the debate centers around whether a fetus is a person or not. It’s a philosophical question that sidesteps the thorniest moral questions. If a fetus isn’t a person, we can kill it. Otherwise we can’t. People balk at legislating morality, but not so much philosophy. We end up in this sort of odd Pascal’s wager type situation… explore all the horrible implications if a fetus is (or isn’t) a person. I would like to sidestep that whole debate and say the only person whose opinion matters is the person who is pregnant. If she says it’s a person, then we treat it as a person with all the attendant rights and responsibilities. Otherwise… it’s not a person. Nobody should be forced to remain pregnant. If you tell me that means I’m tolerating the killing of a “person”, I’m comfortable with that as it applies to fetuses. Nobody else gets any say whatsoever, including the sperm donor. The highest principle is that nobody else should be able to compel another person into the slavery of forced reproduction. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2021, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-you-pro-choice-or-pro-life/949904/268 "2021-09-10T22:37:23Z")
Okay. But why is volition important? Could it be because it makes _us_ not feel as bad about killing it? ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2021, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-you-pro-choice-or-pro-life/949904/269 "2021-09-10T22:39:36Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > I would like to sidestep that whole debate and say the only person whose opinion matters is the person who is pregnant. If she says it’s a person, then we treat it as a person with all the attendant rights and responsibilities. Otherwise… it’s not a person. Flesh this out for me if you would. Why don’t you give me the same choice about a dog or a toddler? ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2021, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-you-pro-choice-or-pro-life/949904/270 "2021-09-10T22:42:40Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Okay. But why is volition important? Could it be because it makes _us_ not feel as bad about killing it? Because i consider that a minimal requirement to be considered a human being. Heck, i feel bad pulling out a flourishing dandelion. So no, i don’t think it’s about “making us feel bad”. But i think we owe a much greater moral debt to human beings than to things that aren’t human beings. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2021, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-you-pro-choice-or-pro-life/949904/271 "2021-09-10T22:44:34Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > Because i consider that a minimal requirement to be considered a human being. So if a person, a living human, has a medical condition that makes him or her unable to have volition, then that is not a human being? I can shoot grandpa three minutes before he dies and should not be charged with murder? ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2021, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-you-pro-choice-or-pro-life/949904/272 "2021-09-10T22:45:56Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > Nobody else gets any say whatsoever, including the sperm donor. I think this is terribly condescending to millions of fathers who contribute far more that ejaculate matter to their children. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2021, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-you-pro-choice-or-pro-life/949904/273 "2021-09-10T22:48:17Z")
If your grandpa will die without living as a parasite within you, and he no longer has any volition, then yes, you can expel him from your body. IMHO. Even though that will kill him. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2021, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-you-pro-choice-or-pro-life/949904/274 "2021-09-10T22:51:49Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > If your grandpa will die without living as a parasite within you This seems to be a common theme. This idea considers human beings to be parasites? You were that and so was I. It cannot be considered a bad thing to do what is required of everyone. I have heard the term “trespasser” as well. The law regarding parasites or trespassers assumes a state of nature where we don’t want that and try to discourage such lawlessness. This state was required for every one of us to be here. It cannot be considered an invasion, especially when one has consensual sex. No, I don’t want to go back to 1692, but pregnancy sometimes happens after sex. I think this (along with the human life question) is a big part of it. People want consequence free sex as a higher value than human/potential human life. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2021, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-you-pro-choice-or-pro-life/949904/275 "2021-09-10T23:06:50Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Why don’t you give me the same choice about a dog or a toddler? Because they’re not inside anybody. > [@UltraVires](#): > > This state was required for every one of us to be here. It cannot be considered an invasion The second does not follow from the first. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2021, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-you-pro-choice-or-pro-life/949904/276 "2021-09-10T23:08:34Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > > [@puzzlegal](#): > > > > If your grandpa will die without living as a parasite within you > > This seems to be a common theme. This idea considers human beings to be parasites? You were that and so was I. It cannot be considered a bad thing to do what is required of everyone. I have heard the term “trespasser” as well. The law regarding parasites or trespassers assumes a state of nature where we don’t want that and try to discourage such lawlessness. That doesn’t seem to follow. It seems to me that, if you for some reason want to do the ‘trespasser’ analogy, you’d say it’s to someone you can eject if you’re so inclined, or you could let them stay if you’re so inclined, and when it comes the latter we’re _not_ trying to “discourage such”: we _don’t_ say “we don’t want that”; we just sort of — _shrug_, while plenty of folks decide in favor letting them stay and plenty of folks, well, y’know, don’t. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2021, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-you-pro-choice-or-pro-life/949904/277 "2021-09-10T23:13:15Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > Because they’re not inside anybody. That is certainly a factual difference. But why does that person/potential person’s right to live, when it has done nothing wrong, become subsumed by the mere statement that it is inside a body? We were all inside a body. I’m trying not to have this turn out the same as all other of these debates. Do you see my point? I get that being inside a woman’s body is different than a dog or my toddler, but why does it tip the balance, when it is not an unusual proposition but how all of us, women included, got here? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2021, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-you-pro-choice-or-pro-life/949904/278 "2021-09-10T23:21:17Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > I get that being inside a woman’s body is different than a dog or my toddler, but why does it tip the balance, when it is not an unusual proposition but how all of us, women included, got here? I don’t get why you think that’s relevant or interesting. Nobody is arguing for ending every pregnancy in abortion; if, going forward, every pregnant woman on the planet were allowed to make the decision for herself, then presumably (a) there’d still be a next generation, and another one after that, and so on; and (b) someone in each future generation could likewise say _“and that’s how all of us, women included, got here.”_ ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2021, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-you-pro-choice-or-pro-life/949904/279 "2021-09-10T23:23:24Z")
I know this. You are saying that the world won’t implode if we have legal abortion and that is true after 50 years of Roe. Why does that mean it is the better position? The world didn’t implode pre-Roe either. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2021, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-you-pro-choice-or-pro-life/949904/280 "2021-09-10T23:25:22Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Flesh this out for me if you would. Why don’t you give me the same choice about a dog or a toddler? I have no problem with you euthanizing your own dog. Knock yourself out, cook it and eat it if you want. With regard to a toddler, I’d remind you that the reason I give the pregnant person absolute authority to terminate is because she’s facing the risk and burden of childbirth. Once birth has taken place, that is no longer a factor, so we can apply the normal rules of personhood. Plus the myriad other traits a toddler has acquired that distinguishes them from a fetus, not the least of which are social relationships. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-you-pro-choice-or-pro-life/949904.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-you-pro-choice-or-pro-life/949904.md?page=15)