# Why are you pro choice or pro life? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 1, 2021, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-you-pro-choice-or-pro-life/949904 "2021-09-01T14:48:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2021, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-you-pro-choice-or-pro-life/949904/61 "2021-09-02T15:39:38Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > I’m not carrying the fetus, I’m not going to have to raise it, so I don’t see how my opinion on the matter is relevant, nor that of anyone else who is not carrying the fetus. Even if you think the mother deserves the final say, surely you would admit the father has an _interest_ in the matter? ETA: And I think you are saying the state has no place in enforcing _moral_ codes. If you reject that premise, it follows that the state has an interest as well. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2021, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-you-pro-choice-or-pro-life/949904/62 "2021-09-02T15:39:55Z")
> [@Paul\_was\_in\_Saudi](#): > > What convinced you that an abortion never kills an unborn person? This is the center of the question and I am undecided on it. A person is a being with plans. With hopes, aspirations and goals. Killing a person means that they are not able to work towards those objectives. A fetus has no plans, it has no expectation of even living another day, hour, or second. If it dies, then it just stops being, just as it was not being a short time ago. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2021, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-you-pro-choice-or-pro-life/949904/63 "2021-09-02T15:40:00Z")
> [@Paul\_was\_in\_Saudi](#): > > You see to have moral certainty, often a dangerous thing. Can you tell us how you arrived at this position? I described my thought process in post #24 up thread. Preventing a birth is not an isolated event hanging only by a single moral thread. Child birth is not the purpose or result of most sexual coupling by humans. All births that are frustrated or terminated have exactly the same result. They deprive a human of the potential to exist. So, abortion is not the moral issue of killing a person. Preventing a person is not the same as killing one. An embryo is not a person. It’s removal is not murder. I do not have moral certainty of the kind you imply. I simply do not consider it to be a moral issue. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2021, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-you-pro-choice-or-pro-life/949904/64 "2021-09-02T15:40:23Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > But a lot of people have more nuanced views about abortion if you actually talk to them about it. Basically, I agree with what you have said. My wife always said that she, personally, could never have chosen an abortion, but strongly supports that other women should have the choice, however they made it. I was looking at a photo of a Paralympian swimmer born with no legs and wondered how we would have chosen had an ultrasound shown that. I truly don’t know. It would help if society were more supportive, but it strikes me that it is the pro-lifers who would object to that. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_was\_in\_Saudi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b77776/32.png) [@Paul\_was\_in\_Saudi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_was_in_Saudi)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2021, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-you-pro-choice-or-pro-life/949904/65 "2021-09-02T15:43:22Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > I simply do not consider it to be a moral issue. Gosh. What in the world would you consider a moral issue? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2021, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-you-pro-choice-or-pro-life/949904/66 "2021-09-02T15:45:46Z")
Sure, the father can have an opinion. I would even say that they are the only person who has a right to express that opinion unsolicited. But their contribution to the situation was having an orgasm, not exactly the same sort of burden as carrying a baby to term. > [@Max\_S](#): > > And I think you are saying the state has no place in enforcing _moral_ codes. Depends on exactly what you mean by moral codes, but for the most part, no, the state should not be enforcing such things. If I just don’t _like_ what someone else is doing, but what they are doing is not doing me any potential harm, then I don’t think that I should have standing to demand that they stop. That’s what I think of as moral codes, if you have a different definition that covers slavery and child molestation, then that’s because you chose that definition. You’ve now changed your ETA to not make much sense. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2021, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-you-pro-choice-or-pro-life/949904/67 "2021-09-02T15:49:03Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > There are many things that I think are wrong, so I don’t do, but do not raise to the point of thinking that no one else should do them. Slavery and child molestation are things that I think are wrong enough that I would advocate to my society that no one tolerates them, and we do not allow it. > … > In my opinion, abortion is in the first category. In other people’s opinion, it is in the latter. Yes, exactly. The problem I have is with people who seem to think “If you think it’s wrong, don’t do it, but don’t tell other people what to do” is a valid argument for the pro-choice position, when really it’s begging the question of “which kind of wrong” it is. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2021, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-you-pro-choice-or-pro-life/949904/68 "2021-09-02T15:51:50Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Sure, the father can have an opinion. I would even say that they are the only person who has a right to express that opinion unsolicited. > > But their contribution to the situation was having an orgasm, not exactly the same sort of burden as carrying a baby to term. I find this kind of commonly dismissive attitude towards the kind of investment required of the father deeply troubling. More often than not, there was a dinner involved. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2021, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-you-pro-choice-or-pro-life/949904/69 "2021-09-02T15:53:27Z")
> [@Paul\_was\_in\_Saudi](#): > > Gosh. What in the world would you consider a moral issue? That is not relevant and is off topic. Your post implies certainty that abortion is somehow a moral issue. How so? ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2021, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-you-pro-choice-or-pro-life/949904/70 "2021-09-02T15:57:22Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > But their contribution to the situation was having an orgasm Eh, if that was the only contribution I would show the father the door. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > You’ve now changed your ETA to not make much sense. My general point is that your argument, here > [@k9bfriender](#): > > I am pro-choice because I think that it is a difficult and hard enough decision that there is only one person who is in a position to make it, and that is the person carrying the fetus. I’m not carrying the fetus, I’m not going to have to raise it, so I don’t see how my opinion on the matter is relevant, nor that of anyone else who is not carrying the fetus. relies on the hidden premise that the only person who is in a position to make a decision about abortion is the person who is carrying the fetus. So what you have written boils down to, ‘I am pro-choice because I think the only person who is in a position to make a decision about abortion is the person who is carrying the fetus’. A tautology, considering that is the definition of pro-choice. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2021, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-you-pro-choice-or-pro-life/949904/71 "2021-09-02T16:08:39Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > if that was the only contribution I would show the father the door. To the pregnancy, that _is_ the only contribution. What else do you think happens when babbies are made? > [@Max\_S](#): > > relies on the hidden premise that the only person who is in a position to make a decision about abortion is the person who is carrying the fetus. It’s not a hidden premise. It was quite overt, I said that very specifically. > [@Max\_S](#): > > A tautology, considering that is the definition of pro-choice. And so I agree with the definition of pro-choice. I’m not really following what point you think you are making here. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_was\_in\_Saudi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b77776/32.png) [@Paul\_was\_in\_Saudi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_was_in_Saudi)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2021, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-you-pro-choice-or-pro-life/949904/72 "2021-09-02T16:10:00Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > Your post implies certainty that abortion is somehow a moral issue. In a world where we boycott Nestle bottled water, surely most everything has a moral dimension. I consider most everything a moral issue. Don’t you? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2021, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-you-pro-choice-or-pro-life/949904/73 "2021-09-02T16:10:42Z")
Is that boycott something that people have chosen to do on their own, or something that has the force of law behind it? ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_was\_in\_Saudi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b77776/32.png) [@Paul\_was\_in\_Saudi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_was_in_Saudi)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2021, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-you-pro-choice-or-pro-life/949904/74 "2021-09-02T16:12:56Z")
I suspect you know the answer to that. Boycotting a product or risking taking a life are both moral decisions. Most decisions have a moral side to them. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2021, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-you-pro-choice-or-pro-life/949904/75 "2021-09-02T16:15:34Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > Even if you think the mother deserves the final say, surely you would admit the father has an _interest_ in the matter? The man’s interest does not over-ride the woman’s choice and her agency over her own body. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2021, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-you-pro-choice-or-pro-life/949904/76 "2021-09-02T16:18:05Z")
> [@Paul\_was\_in\_Saudi](#): > > Most decisions have a moral side to them. OK - then let us proceed on that premise: Preventing the development of a potential human being is a moral issue Is it absolute and universal or circumstantial? ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2021, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-you-pro-choice-or-pro-life/949904/77 "2021-09-02T16:57:36Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > To the pregnancy, that _is_ the only contribution. What else do you think happens when babbies are made? It is not. There are a number of things a father or anybody really can do to _help a mother manage her pregnancy_. IMO the more a person does, the more invested they are in the pregnancy even though they aren’t the one physically carrying the fetus. The more invested they are, the more they stand to lose if the pregnancy is terminated. The more they stand to lose, the more relevance their opinion has at least under a harm-avoidance analysis (which I suspect you use). @Broomstick: I’m not arguing that the father’s investment outweighs the mother’s rights with this line of discussion, which began “Even if you think the mother deserves the final say […]”. I am responding to **k9bfriender** who seemed to argue that nobody else’s opinion was even _relevant_. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > I’m not really following what point you think you are making here. The topic is, _why_ are you pro-choice, not merely _are_ you pro-choice. So I’m trying to learn _why_ you think the only person whose opinion on an abortion is relevant is the person carrying the fetus. I suspect you are using a harm-avoidance analysis (utilitarian nonmaleficence). Assuming the unborn is incapable of being harmed, the mother probably stands to suffer the most harm if she is forced to carry her pregnancy to term. Therefore the decision is hers. But I don’t generally like putting words in other people’s mouths, you might have your own rationale. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2021, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-you-pro-choice-or-pro-life/949904/78 "2021-09-02T17:12:34Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > A person is a being with plans. With hopes, aspirations and goals. Killing a person means that they are not able to work towards those objectives. This definition would imply that babies are not persons. Maybe toddlers too. Also anyone in a persistent vegetative state. Is that actually your opinion? ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2021, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-you-pro-choice-or-pro-life/949904/79 "2021-09-02T17:20:47Z")
You forgot to mention deadbeats. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2021, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-you-pro-choice-or-pro-life/949904/80 "2021-09-02T17:36:50Z")
> [@Paul\_was\_in\_Saudi](#): > > surely most everything has a moral dimension Not exactly. ‘Moral’ is the judgement of right from wrong. There is a neutral zone between them. I am not a member of the Pro-Life movement because of their attacks on pregnant women. It is wrong of them to intimidate women who are experiencing the stress of pregnancy along with the stress of ending it. No one has the right to shout at and shame a person seeking an abortion. That is slander and intimidation, not free speech. It is wrong for the state to require a woman to see the shape of the embryo on ultrasound before it is removed. That is state sponsored torture. The Pro-Life movement is immoral. Abortion is in the moral neutral zone between right and wrong. It is a medical procedure not a religious ritual. The decision to have children is a matter for a parent or parents. It is a based on personal responsibility. The decision not to have a child has the same result regardless of the method employed. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-you-pro-choice-or-pro-life/949904.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-you-pro-choice-or-pro-life/949904.md?page=5)