# Why are young black men in the US 21X more likely to be killed by police than young white men? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 13, 2014, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156 "2014-10-13T01:48:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2014, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/181 "2014-10-14T19:14:22Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Is there a precipitous drop in proportion of crime committed by black youths to that committed by white youths? I’ve already showed a precipitous drop in crime committed by black people. I’m having trouble finding a cite that breaks this down by age and race over the years. If you like, you can pretend that black youths are getting more violent and the drop comes entire from a decline in violent crime committed by old people. Or you could accept the obvious. I’m good either way. **Velocity** , would you mind answering this question? > [@Marley23](#): > > So you believe black people tended to be more violent than white people during the eras of slavery and Jim Crow? If the answer is no, you have to accept that sometimes stereotypes are just fabricated to advance the agenda of a society and can run 100% contrary to the truth and in fact that they are sometimes used to obscure the truth- in this case, the widespread violence and coercion that society used against a victimized group. If the answer is yes, then I have very little to say to you. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2014, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/182 "2014-10-14T19:17:11Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I’ve already showed a precipitous drop in crime committed by black people. That is not what I asked. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2014, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/183 "2014-10-14T19:20:53Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > So you believe black people tended to be more violent than white people during the eras of slavery and Jim Crow? Difficult to quantify; might be \*different \*kinds of violence. A white master whipping a black slave is a very different violence than an escaped black slave shooting a pursuing white master to avoid recapture. If yes, then during the era of slavery, black people may have had much more justifiable reason for violence - i.e., more self-defense. I would prefer not to compare it to today’s era. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2014, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/184 "2014-10-14T19:21:03Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > That is not what I asked. Perhaps you could read the rest of the post. > [@Velocity](#): > > Difficult to quantify; might be \*different \*kinds of violence. A white master whipping a black slave is a very different violence than an escaped black slave shooting a pursuing white master to avoid recapture. What about the violence involved in enslaving people? Also- you think escaped slaves had guns?!? > [@](#): > > I would prefer not to compare it to today’s era. Nobody asked you to. I asked you to answer a question and you’re ducking it. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2014, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/185 "2014-10-14T19:23:29Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Difficult to quantify Not when one recognizes that _all slaves_, and many free blacks, in that time period, were subject to daily violence. > [@](#): > > I would prefer not to compare it to today’s era. I’m sure you wouldn’t. It makes it easy to sidestep questions like “why weren’t white men perceived as imminent rapers of black women?”. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2014, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/186 "2014-10-14T19:25:13Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Perhaps you could read the rest of the post. > > What about the violence involved in enslaving people? Also- you think escaped slaves had guns?!? > > Nobody asked you to. I asked you to answer a question and you’re ducking it. Which question? This one: “So you believe black people tended to be more violent than white people during the eras of slavery and Jim Crow?”? No, I don’t believe that. If you can show me some evidence that there was a widespread belief that black people were more violent than white people during slavery, I’d like to see it. Although I am sure there was no love lost between slave owners and slaves, so the slave owners did have to watch their backs. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2014, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/187 "2014-10-14T19:35:52Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > If you can show me some evidence that there was a widespread belief that black people were more violent than white people during slavery, I’d like to see it. He did, in post #174. Here’s [another one](http://www.law.harvard.edu/students/orgs/blj/vol25/95-132.pdf): > [@](#): > > Predating the slavery era, whites portrayed people of African descent > as primitive and animalistic as part of the process of demonizing > and Other-izing black men. This animalistic conceptualization naturally > led to the stereotyping of black men as both hypersexual and hyperaggressive > – “\*n the Negro all the passions, emotions, and ambitions, are > almost wholly subservient to the sexual instinct. . . .”43 At the core, this > construction of the oversexed black male parlayed perfectly into notions > of black bestiality and primitivism. Whites framed black male sexuality > in a manner that evoked connotations of the “foreign,” “imposing,” and > “unnatural.” ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2014, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/188 "2014-10-14T19:38:26Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > No, I don’t believe that. If you can show me some evidence that there was a widespread belief that black people were more violent than white people during slavery, I’d like to see it. I was asking **Velocity** , but I already posted a link to a Reconstruction-era document to that effect. [Here’s a more vivid example.](http://www.ferris.edu/htmls/news/jimcrow/brute/) > [@](#): > > Although I am sure there was no love lost between slave owners and slaves, so the slave owners did have to watch their backs. Of course the former slaves were the ones who were really in danger. Weird how that works. One group commits violence against another but insists their victims are really the violent ones. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2014, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/189 "2014-10-14T19:42:47Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > He did, in post #174. Here’s [another one](http://www.law.harvard.edu/students/orgs/blj/vol25/95-132.pdf): Neither in post #174 nor in your quote is there anything that shows that there was a widespread perception during slavery era that blacks were more violent than whites. Not more “animalistic” or “primitive” but more violent. Your cited paper does mention “hyperaggressive” but does not support it with any cites. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2014, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/190 "2014-10-14T19:44:53Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I was asking **Velocity** , but I already posted a link to a Reconstruction-era document to that effect. [Here’s a more vivid example.](http://www.ferris.edu/htmls/news/jimcrow/brute/) Let’s see: “During slavery the dominant caricatures of blacks – Mammy, Coon, Tom, and picaninny – portrayed them as childlike, ignorant, docile, groveling, and generally harmless. These portrayals were pragmatic and instrumental. Proponents of slavery created and promoted images of blacks that justified slavery and soothed white consciences. If slaves were childlike, for example, then a paternalistic institution where masters acted as quasi-parents to their slaves was humane, even morally right. More importantly, slaves were rarely depicted as brutes because that portrayal might have become a self-fulfilling prophecy.” Are you dropping your insistence that there was a widespread perception during slavery era that blacks were more violent than whites? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2014, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/191 "2014-10-14T19:47:34Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Neither in post #174 nor in your quote is there anything that shows that there was a widespread perception during slavery era that blacks were more violent than whites. Not more “animalistic” or “primitive” but more violent. Your cited paper does mention “hyperaggressive” but does not support it with any cites. “Hyperagressive” is supported with a cite (from a book written in 1944). Further, you’re ignoring the sexual-type caricatures – when far more black women were raped by white men than the reverse, why did this stereotype exist for black men but not white men? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2014, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/192 "2014-10-14T19:49:39Z")
During Jim Crow, the height of the “brute” stereotype, black people were far more at risk from white violence than the reverse. And yet the brute stereotype soared, with no similar caricature for white men. Why do you think that is, **Terr**? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2014, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/193 "2014-10-14T19:51:01Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > “Hyperagressive” is supported with a cite (from a book written in 1944). But the quote from the book does not support the characterization. > [@](#): > > Further, you’re ignoring the sexual-type caricatures – when far more black women were raped by white men than the reverse, why did this stereotype exist for black men but not white men? Because blacks, including women, were considered less important? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2014, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/194 "2014-10-14T19:52:02Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Are you dropping your insistence that there was a widespread perception during slavery era that blacks were more violent than whites? You’re correct, it appears to date to Reconstruction. Let’s look at how I worded the question yet again: > [@Marley23](#): > > So you believe black people tended to be more violent than white people during the eras of slavery and Jim Crow? So now perhaps you could try engaging with the actual question. OK, you’re using the modern version of a stereotype that dates to Reconstruction era instead of slavery. I don’t think that’s much to celebrate. Of course if you believe there was a solid factual basis for the belief that black people were inherently violent, you can go ahead and say so and try to substantiate that belief. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2014, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/195 "2014-10-14T19:52:42Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > During Jim Crow, the height of the “brute” stereotype, black people were far more at risk from white violence than the reverse. And yet the brute stereotype soared, with no similar caricature for white men. > > Why do you think that is, **Terr**? From what I see in those sources, because some whites wanted to justify slavery post-facto by creating an impression that it was slavery that pacified the blacks? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2014, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/196 "2014-10-14T19:53:41Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > But the quote from the book does not support the characterization. You have the 1944 book? I couldn’t find the text for it. Please link to it. > [@](#): > > Because blacks, including women, were considered less important? This doesn’t make sense. How does a hypersexual-black-man caricature follow from this? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2014, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/197 "2014-10-14T19:54:50Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > From what I see in those sources, because some whites wanted to justify slavery post-facto by creating an impression that it was slavery that pacified the blacks? That would be horrible enough, but no. They were justifying Jim Crow and the new repression of freed blacks, and of course the widespread murder and oppression that came with it. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2014, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/198 "2014-10-14T19:54:47Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > From what I see in those sources, because some whites wanted to justify slavery post-facto by creating an impression that it was slavery that pacified the blacks? That was part of it (a very small part), most likely. Do you think it could also be to justify continuing violence and oppression of black people? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2014, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/199 "2014-10-14T19:57:42Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Of course if you believe there was a solid factual basis for the belief that black people were inherently violent, you can go ahead and say so and try to substantiate that belief. There is a solid factual basis that significantly more crime is committed by blacks vs. whites, proportionately. As for whether this is due to inherent violence - depends what you mean by that. If you mean genetic/built in kind of violence, no I don’t think so. If you mean whether there are inherent cultural differences that cause this significant discrepancy in crime committed, yes, I think that’s correct. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2014, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/200 "2014-10-14T19:58:45Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > You have the 1944 book? I couldn’t find the text for it. Please link to it. The quote from the book that was in the paper you cited. If the authors wanted to support their “hyperaggressive” characterization, they should have found a better quote. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156.md?page=11)