# Why are young black men in the US 21X more likely to be killed by police than young white men? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 13, 2014, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156 "2014-10-13T01:48:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2014, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/201 "2014-10-14T20:05:16Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > That was part of it (a very small part), most likely. Do you think it could also be to justify continuing violence and oppression of black people? > [@Marley23](#): > > That would be horrible enough, but no. They were justifying Jim Crow and the new repression of freed blacks, and of course the widespread murder and oppression that came with it. It definitely could be. Now - back to modern times. Do you think that the fact that blacks commit significantly more crime than whites, proportionately, is used to “justify continuing violence and oppression of black people”? And that people who mention that fact have that “continuing violence and oppression” as a goal? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2014, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/202 "2014-10-14T20:15:11Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > As for whether this is due to inherent violence - depends what you mean by that. It means whatever you want it to mean, since you’ve been asserting black people are predisposed to violence. > [@](#): > > If you mean genetic/built in kind of violence, no I don’t think so. If you mean whether there are inherent cultural differences that cause this significant discrepancy in crime committed, yes, I think that’s correct. Did those inherent cultural differences also exist during Reconstruction and Jim Crow, when black people were also believed to be more violence-prone than white people? > [@Terr](#): > > It definitely could be. Now - back to modern times. Perhaps you could have just typed HEY EVERYBODY I NEED TO CHANGE THE SUBJECT NOW. > [@](#): > > Do you think that the fact that blacks commit significantly more crime than whites, proportionately, is used to “justify continuing violence and oppression of black people”? Yes. > [@](#): > > And that people who mention that fact have that “continuing violence and oppression” as a goal? No, I don’t think that’s your goal. I don’t think you’re a critical cog of some kind of conspiracy. :rolleyes: I think you’re just perpetuating a stereotype and don’t much care about the harm it causes, the harm it justifies, and its bogus roots and utter wrongness. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2014, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/203 "2014-10-14T20:17:35Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Did those inherent cultural differences also exist during Reconstruction and Jim Crow, when black people were also believed to be more violence-prone than white people? No, I think these cultural influences are of more recent vintage. And as I keep mentioning, it is not a “belief” that significantly more crime is committed by blacks, proportionately, than whites (or any other minority, actually). It is a fact. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2014, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/204 "2014-10-14T20:22:10Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > No, I think these cultural influences are of more recent vintage. While I am ever so fascinated to hear about those cultural influences, which are no doubt some combination of music and art you don’t know and social programs you oppose, I’m more interested in a bigger question. I think you are conceding that black people 100 years ago were caricatured the same way black people are today. Do you believe that’s a coincidence? A historical accident? How did that happen exactly? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2014, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/205 "2014-10-14T20:38:52Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I think you are conceding that black people 100 years ago were caricatured the same way black people are today. No, I don’t think so. They are not “caricatured” the same way (or any way) today. Unless you think stating facts is “caricaturing”. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2014, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/206 "2014-10-14T20:46:46Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > No, I don’t think so. They are not “caricatured” the same way (or any way) today. So racism and stereotyping against black people have utterly ceased to exist? How convenient… that this thread provides a fair number of counterexamples. > [@Toastmaker](#): > > It’s common knowledge that large percentages of black male youths intentionally emulate gangster, thug-life habits and attitudes which naturally put law enforcement on a somewhat higher state of alert when dealing with them. > [@Shodan](#): > > If young black males act differently (and negatively) towards the rest of society, it’s entirely reasonable to feel negatively inclined towards younhg black males > [@magellan01](#): > > a black guy with a rapper-type t-shirt, gold chains and gold teeth driving a black SUV with tinted windows. > [@magellan01](#): > > I think the problem sprouts from the what has happened to the black family unit and the degree to which fathers are absent. It’s really a shame. > [@magellan01](#): > > my point is that 1) among blacks, by changing the signals sent to cops via things like dress they can largely eliminate an increased level of suspicion/fear. > [@Terr](#): > > a gangsta murderer ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2014, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/207 "2014-10-14T20:50:28Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > So racism and stereotyping against black people have utterly ceased to exist? How convenient… that this thread provides a fair number of counterexamples. As I said, stating facts is not “caricaturing”. And yes, I said “gangsta murderer” because that is who **tomndebb** referred to in the post to which I was replying. “Gangsta” vs “gangster” to distinguish from the mafia. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2014, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/208 "2014-10-14T21:01:25Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > No, I don’t think so. They are not “caricatured” the same way (or any way) today. Unless you think stating facts is “caricaturing”. Talking about statistics is not caricaturing. Saying black men are aggressive and violent is caricaturing, since the vast majority are not. And that’s quite a limb you’re going out on – that black people aren’t caricatured _in any way_ today. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2014, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/209 "2014-10-14T21:04:17Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > As I said, stating facts is not “caricaturing”. And yes, I said “gangsta murderer” because that is who **tomndebb** referred to in the post to which I was replying. “Gangsta” vs “gangster” to distinguish from the mafia. It’s not a fact, asserted by **Shodan** , that “young black males act differently (and negatively) towards the rest of society”. Most young black males do not act negatively towards the rest of society. Some Jews are bad people who act badly towards society. I think you’d object if **Shodan** had said “If young Jewish males act differently (and negatively) towards the rest of society, it’s entirely reasonable to feel negatively inclined towards young Jewish males”. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2014, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/210 "2014-10-14T21:04:44Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > As I said, stating facts is not “caricaturing”. The statements I quoted were not facts. > [@](#): > > And yes, I said “gangsta murderer” because that is who **tomndebb** referred to in the post to which I was replying. “Gangsta” vs “gangster” to distinguish from the mafia. Ah, I see. Even though this discussion has focused entirely on black people and nobody has made the least reference to the Mafia or Italian-American organized crime, you thought someone might get confused if you spelled “gangster.” That makes total sense. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2014, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/211 "2014-10-14T21:15:16Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > No, I don’t think so. They are not “caricatured” the same way (or any way) today. Unless you think stating facts is “caricaturing”. Is it a fact that black women are loud, argue a lot, and twist their neck back and forth a lot? Or is this a caricature? Is it a fact that black people don’t tip? Or is this a caricature? Is it a fact that black people can’t be trusted in a store not to steal? Or is this a caricature? Is it a fact that any black person in a high position is a beneficiary of affirmative actions? Or is this a caricature? Is it a fact that black men are better at pleasing white women sexually? Or is this a caricature? Is it a fact that black people can dance better? Or is this a caricature? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2014, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/212 "2014-10-14T21:30:52Z")
That list is such a weird thing to read. **iiandyiii** left off one of the most pervasive and harmful stereotypes: the Welfare Queen. And what a coincidence- that one also [has some similarity to a stereotyped image of black women](http://www.ferris.edu/Jimcrow/jezebel.htm). > [@](#): > > The belief that black women are sexually promiscuous is propagated by innumerable images of pregnant black women and black women with large numbers of children. A 1947 greeting card depicting a black Mammy bears the caption: “Ah keeps right on sendin’ em!” Inside is a young black woman with eight small children. The inside caption reads: “As long as you keeps on havin’ em.” > > In the 1964 presidential election between Lyndon Johnson and Barry Goldwater, Johnson used the political slogan, “All the way with LBJ.” A mid-1960s license plate shows a caricatured black woman, pregnant, with these words, “Ah went all de way wib LBJ.” Johnson received overwhelming support from black voters. The image on the license plate, which also appeared on posters and smaller prints, insults blacks generally, black Democrats, and black women. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2014, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/213 "2014-10-14T22:00:44Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > You’re seriously claiming that dealing with a gangsta murderer is not dangerous? > [@Shodan](#): > > Please produce a cite showing that those who commit gang-on-gang murders assault or kill policemen at a rate no higher than the general public. I’m seriously suggesting that gang members tend to hang out in specific locations, with police monitoring who they are and what they are doing, so that a policeman who decides to treat every kid with black skin as a potential gansta is being a racist and is overreacting with insufficient provocation. Please provide a cite showing that police can only identify gangstas by their skin color or that the overwhelming majority of black kids hassled by cops have actually been gangstas. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2014, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/214 "2014-10-14T23:54:20Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > The statements I quoted were not facts. > > Ah, I see. Even though this discussion has focused entirely on black people and nobody has made the least reference to the Mafia or Italian-American organized crime, you thought someone might get confused if you spelled “gangster.” That makes total sense. Yes, because “gangster” has a meaning usually associated with the mob. I like to use precise language. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2014, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/215 "2014-10-14T23:55:23Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Is it a fact that black women are loud, argue a lot, and twist their neck back and forth a lot? Or is this a caricature? > > Is it a fact that black people don’t tip? Or is this a caricature? > > Is it a fact that black people can’t be trusted in a store not to steal? Or is this a caricature? > > Is it a fact that any black person in a high position is a beneficiary of affirmative actions? Or is this a caricature? > > Is it a fact that black men are better at pleasing white women sexually? Or is this a caricature? > > Is it a fact that black people can dance better? Or is this a caricature? Wow, you’re a repository of bigotry. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2014, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/216 "2014-10-14T23:57:03Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Please provide a cite showing that police can only identify gangstas by their skin color or that the overwhelming majority of black kids hassled by cops have actually been gangstas. What does that have to do with your claim that because a lot of black crime is gang-on-gang, they are not really dangerous to cops? ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/217 "2014-10-15T00:06:12Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Wow, you’re a repository of bigotry. And that was really unnecessary. I realize you might find actually answering the post a bit uncomfortable, but to twist it into an insult like that does your argument no favors. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/218 "2014-10-15T00:39:26Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Wow, you’re a repository of bigotry. Nice dodge, scaredy cat. I understand this is difficult, and I doubt you have the courage to answer each question, but I figured it was worth a shot. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/219 "2014-10-15T01:14:17Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Nice dodge, scaredy cat. I understand this is difficult, and I doubt you have the courage to answer each question, but I figured it was worth a shot. You showed some bigoted beliefs. I don’t think that bigotry is widespread. If you can show me a cite that these beliefs are widespread, I’d appreciate it. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/220 "2014-10-15T01:46:21Z")
Since you think this a valuable exercise, I will oblige you: > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Is it a fact that black women are loud, argue a lot, and twist their neck back and forth a lot? Or is this a caricature? I think it mostly has to do with the culture they live in. The neck thing has become largely an affectation. But no one cares if black women do these things. Though I do wish they would shut the fuck up in movie theaters. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Is it a fact that black people don’t tip? Or is this a caricature? I’ve never heard this before. Not once. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Is it a fact that black people can’t be trusted in a store not to steal? Or is this a caricature? Depends on the neighborhood probably. Probably tied very closely with socioeconomic status. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Is it a fact that any black person in a high position is a beneficiary of affirmative actions? Or is this a caricature? It’s certainly not a fact. It’s a lame caricature. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Is it a fact that black men are better at pleasing white women sexually? Or is this a caricature? I’ll leave this for women to answer. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Is it a fact that black people can dance better? Or is this a caricature? Caricature. I went to a highschool that was about 40% black and I danced circles around all of them. ; ) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156.md?page=12)