# Why are young black men in the US 21X more likely to be killed by police than young white men? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 13, 2014, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156 "2014-10-13T01:48:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/221 "2014-10-15T03:20:35Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > You showed some bigoted beliefs. I don’t think that bigotry is widespread. If you can show me a cite that these beliefs are widespread, I’d appreciate it. Seriously, have you been on an extended vacation to Mars or something? The “black people steal” bigoted stereotype, for example, is so common that it even has its own name: [“Consumer Racial Profiling”](http://www.utimes.pitt.edu/?p=6114). It’s not just a “widespread belief”, it’s a widespread unofficial business policy among people who espouse that belief. In fact, bigoted stereotypes about black propensity to crime persist not just for violent crime and theft, but all types of crime: > [@](#): > > Stereotypes of the criminal black man persist. [Penn State researcher Shaun Gabbidon] cited an exercise he’s conducted on several college campuses in which he lists the eight most serious criminal offenses and asks students to attach the percentage of arrests they believe can be ascribed to each racial group. “In each case, everybody believes black people commit the most crimes in the United States,” he said. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/222 "2014-10-15T04:21:49Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > In fact, bigoted stereotypes about black propensity to crime persist not just for violent crime and theft, but all types of crime: > Stereotypes of the criminal black man persist. [Penn State researcher Shaun Gabbidon] cited an exercise he’s conducted on several college campuses in which he lists the eight most serious criminal offenses and asks students to attach the percentage of arrests they believe can be ascribed to each racial group. “In each case, everybody believes black people commit the most crimes in the United States,” he said. Proportionately, it’s true. As for the other stereotypes - yes, everyone knows _about_ them (like **iiandyiiii** ). Yet how many believe them? Give me some cites. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/223 "2014-10-15T04:29:58Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Stereotypes of the criminal black man persist. [Penn State researcher Shaun Gabbidon] cited an exercise he’s conducted on several college campuses in which he lists the eight most serious criminal offenses and asks students to attach the percentage of arrests they believe can be ascribed to each racial group. “In each case, everybody believes black people commit the most crimes in the United States,” he said. About homicide, it is true even in absolute numbers. [According to the US Department of Justice, blacks accounted for 52.5% of homicide offenders from 1980 to 2008, with whites 45.3% and Native Americans and Asians 2.2%.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_crime_in_the_United_States#Murder) ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/224 "2014-10-15T04:39:02Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Proportionately, it’s true. :dubious: In other words, **you think that the important point here** is that _if somebody deliberately misinterprets survey respondents’ **actual racist-stereotype assertions** _ (i.e., that “black people commit the most crimes in the United States”) _in a **completely different way** _ (e.g., that “black people commit certain types of crimes in more disproportionate numbers than other racial groups” or something like that), then they become more factually accurate. Boy, is that ever a convincing argument for the nonexistence of systemic racist bigotry in the US. Mm-hmm. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/225 "2014-10-15T04:48:13Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > :dubious: In other words, **you think that the important point here** is that _if somebody deliberately misinterprets survey respondents’ **actual racist-stereotype assertions** _ (i.e., that “black people commit the most crimes in the United States”) _in a **completely different way** _ (e.g., that “black people commit certain types of crimes in more disproportionate numbers than other racial groups” or something like that), then they become more factually accurate. Well, they were accurate in absolute, not proportional, sense about homicide and robbery. And not too far from accurate if you’re talking about aggregate violent crime. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 9:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/226 "2014-10-15T09:26:57Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Though I do wish they would shut the fuck up in movie theaters. In a discussion about stereotypes and caricatures, this is a real gem. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 9:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/227 "2014-10-15T09:27:58Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Proportionately, it’s true. It’s true that black people can’t be trusted not to steal in stores? What a load of crap, if you believe this. The vast majority of black people are not thieves. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 11:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/228 "2014-10-15T11:47:44Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > It’s true that black people can’t be trusted not to steal in stores? What a load of crap, if you believe this. The vast majority of black people are not thieves. Did you see what post I was responding too before knee-jerking? I quoted it in my post. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/229 "2014-10-15T11:57:05Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Did you see what post I was responding too before knee-jerking? I quoted it in my post. **Kimstu** was continuing the discussion about stereotypes – in that post, he was referencing the criminal stereotypes (that black people can’t be trusted not to steal, for example). This stereotype/caricature is not true, “proportionally”, or otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/230 "2014-10-15T11:59:22Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > **Kimstu** was continuing the discussion about stereotypes – in that post, he was referencing the criminal stereotypes (that black people can’t be trusted not to steal, for example). This stereotype/caricature is not true, “proportionally”, or otherwise. Once again. I was responding to this: "Stereotypes of the criminal black man persist. [Penn State researcher Shaun Gabbidon] cited an exercise he’s conducted on several college campuses in which he lists the eight most serious criminal offenses and asks students to attach the percentage of arrests they believe can be ascribed to each racial group. “In each case, everybody believes black people commit the most crimes in the United States,” he said. " I know this fact makes you uncomfortable, but the respondents in that exercise were correct about homicide and robbery - blacks do commit most of those in the United States. And they were not that far away from correct when talking about all violent crime in aggregate. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/231 "2014-10-15T12:01:28Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I think it mostly has to do with the culture they live in. So you think this stereotype is “true”, I take it. That’s not good – obviously, there are plenty of black women who don’t fit, and unless you have some statistical polling about anger, loud talking, and neck movement, then it has no rational scientific basis. > [@](#): > > The neck thing has become largely an affectation. But no one cares if black women do these things. A ‘neutral’ stereotype (or a ‘positive’ stereotype) is not as damaging and unfortunate as a negative stereotype. But they’re still not good, and completely useless (and harmful) to take into account for interacting with other people. > [@](#): > > Depends on the neighborhood probably. Probably tied very closely with socioeconomic status. No. The stereotype is false (and offensive). Some black people steal; the vast majority don’t. This is the sort of harmful stereotype _in any neighborhood_ that hurts community relations and hurts people. It helps no one. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/232 "2014-10-15T12:02:37Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > I know this fact makes you uncomfortable, but the respondents in that exercise were correct about homicide and robbery - blacks do commit most of those in the United States. And they were not that far away from correct when talking about all violent crime in aggregate. Who are you talking to? When have I rejected any statistical facts? I recognize the disparaty in crime statistics, and have never denied them. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/233 "2014-10-15T12:07:05Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Who are you talking to? When have I rejected any statistical facts? I recognize the disparaty in crime statistics, and have never denied them. Then why are you sputtering about my response? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/234 "2014-10-15T12:15:02Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Then why are you sputtering about my response? I’m criticizing your ridiculous statements, like saying that black people are not caricatured in any way today. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/235 "2014-10-15T12:21:01Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > I’m seriously suggesting that gang members tend to hang out in specific locations, with police monitoring who they are and what they are doing, so that a policeman who decides to treat every kid with black skin as a potential gansta is being a racist and is overreacting with insufficient provocation. Please produce a cite showing that those who commit gang-on-gang murders assault or kill policemen at a rate no higher than the general public. Regards, Shodan] ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/236 "2014-10-15T12:23:36Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Please produce a cite showing that those who commit gang-on-gang murders assault or kill policemen at a rate no higher than the general public. > > Regards, > Shodan] **tomndebb** never said this was the case. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/237 "2014-10-15T12:43:22Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > What does that have to do with your claim that because a lot of black crime is gang-on-gang, they are not really dangerous to cops? > [@Shodan](#): > > Please produce a cite showing that those who commit gang-on-gang murders assault or kill policemen at a rate no higher than the general public. Gangstas probably are dangerous to policemen. I have never said otherwise. What I noted was that they are going to be more dangerous to everyone when involved in criminal activity and that they are merely a subset of the black population. Further, the police are going to be more aware of both the criminal activity and the persons who commit those activities. Therefore, stopping every black kid on the street is, statistically, bad practice, because it lumps known criminals engaged in illegal actions together with everyone who shares the same color and sex. Stopping every black kid on the street, even when there is no reason to associate them with a gang and then treating them as if they had already been convicted of a crime is even stupider because it tells the kid that the police are the enemy, increasing the distrust of the police throughout the neighborhood. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/238 "2014-10-15T13:15:04Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Gangstas probably are dangerous to policemen. I have never said otherwise. First **Marley23** and now you - blandly denying what is right there in black and white. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/239 "2014-10-15T13:22:16Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > First **Marley23** and now you - blandly denying what is right there in black and white. No. This is **Shodan** typically misreading (through error or malice) what has actually been posted. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/240 "2014-10-15T13:56:05Z")
No, it is you denying what you said when you got caught saying something absurd. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156.md?page=13)