# Why are young black men in the US 21X more likely to be killed by police than young white men? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 13, 2014, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156 "2014-10-13T01:48:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/241 "2014-10-15T14:47:10Z")
> [@andros](#): > > And that was really unnecessary. I realize you might find actually answering the post a bit uncomfortable, but to twist it into an insult like that does your argument no favors. Of course it was necessary. **Terr** needed a way to avoid the argument. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Nice dodge, scaredy cat. I understand this is difficult, and I doubt you have the courage to answer each question, but I figured it was worth a shot. You figured wrong. 😉 > [@Terr](#): > > If you can show me a cite that these beliefs are widespread, I’d appreciate it. Tell you what- it’s going to be hard if not impossible to find survey data on this, although your reaction is proof you’re familiar with them. In the absence of data, I’m going to say **magellan01** ’s posts in this thread are all the cite **iiandyiii** needs. > [@magellan01](#): > > But no one cares if black women do these things. Though I do wish they would shut the fuck up in movie theaters. LOL. > [@Terr](#): > > Proportionately, it’s true. Translation: it’s not true. It’s amusing to watch people justify stereotypes by insisting that “proportional” rates mean something, and that citizens and the police gain meaningful information from this. Apparently stores should _proportionally_ follow black people around and police should _proportionally_ shoot more black people. Does that make sense- or mean anything? No. It’s incoherent. It’s mostly just an excuse to repeat a piece of data that is of questionable value in the first place while ignoring the broader question that’s asked in this thread. You can see this in thread after thread, too. They cling to this kind of factoid like a life raft. Pages ago I posted a cite showing quite conclusively that black people are disproportionately charged with drug dealing. Has anyone engaged with that cite at all? No. > [@](#): > > As for the other stereotypes - yes, everyone knows _about_ them (like **iiandyiiii** ). Yet how many believe them? Give me some cites. Is there a stereotype about certain groups of people being more likely to move goalposts? > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > It’s true that black people can’t be trusted not to steal in stores? What a load of crap, if you believe this. The vast majority of black people are not thieves. Note that he’s not actually responding to that question and not really saying what he thinks. He’s trying to make a factoid into an argument, which it isn’t. It’s hardly a justification for discrimination. > [@Shodan](#): > > First **Marley23** and now you - blandly denying what is right there in black and white. > [@tomndebb](#): > > No. This is **Shodan** typically misreading (through error or malice) what has actually been posted. Correct. To paraphrase an old saying, if everyone you meet denies saying what you think they said, maybe the problem is with your reading comprehension. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/242 "2014-10-15T15:12:07Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Of course it was necessary. **Terr** needed a way to avoid the argument. The argument is that those bigoted stereotypes **iiiandyiiii** stated are widely believed. You still have not showed any proof of that whatsoever. > [@](#): > > Tell you what- it’s going to be hard if not impossible to find survey data on this, although your reaction is proof you’re familiar with them. As I said, familiarity does not equal belief. > [@](#): > > In the absence of data, I’m going to say **magellan01** ’s posts in this thread are all the cite **iiandyiii** needs. No, in true leftie fashion, in the absence of data you just believe your own biases. > [@](#): > > Translation: it’s not true. It is true for homicide and robbery. Funny how that study didn’t mention that it was, giving the impression that the respondents were wildly incorrect. They weren’t. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/243 "2014-10-15T15:18:13Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > The argument is that those bigoted stereotypes **iiiandyiiii** stated are widely believed. No. You made the deeply absurd claim that black people are not caricatured today.\* He posted some caricatures, you and **magellan01** both acknowledged that you’re aware of at least some of them, so you’re now demanding something else. > [@](#): > > As I said, familiarity does not equal belief. This is a non-started unless you think these caricatures are familiar because nobody believes them. This is another transparently absurd position, so you might actually believe it. \*Unless ‘facts counts as caricaturing,’ and the following count as facts even though you haven’t put forth any argument that they are factual: > [@Toastmaker](#): > > It’s common knowledge that large percentages of black male youths intentionally emulate gangster, thug-life habits and attitudes which naturally put law enforcement on a somewhat higher state of alert when dealing with them. > [@Shodan](#): > > If young black males act differently (and negatively) towards the rest of society, it’s entirely reasonable to feel negatively inclined towards younhg black males > [@magellan01](#): > > a black guy with a rapper-type t-shirt, gold chains and gold teeth driving a black SUV with tinted windows. > [@magellan01](#): > > I think the problem sprouts from the what has happened to the black family unit and the degree to which fathers are absent. It’s really a shame. > [@magellan01](#): > > my point is that 1) among blacks, by changing the signals sent to cops via things like dress they can largely eliminate an increased level of suspicion/fear. > [@Terr](#): > > a gangsta murderer ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/244 "2014-10-15T15:28:27Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > To paraphrase an old saying, if everyone you meet denies saying what you think they said, maybe the problem is with your reading comprehension. No, it’s just stonewalling. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/245 "2014-10-15T15:29:59Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > No, it’s just stonewalling. “An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition!” “No it isn’t!” Regards, Monty Python ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/246 "2014-10-15T15:35:26Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > No, it’s just stonewalling. Maybe it’s your reading comprehension, _and_ you’re stonewalling? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/247 "2014-10-15T15:36:06Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > No. You made the deeply absurd claim that black people are not caricatured today.\* I thought it was obvious, but I will adjust it for you. “Not widely caricatured”. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/248 "2014-10-15T15:44:08Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > I thought it was obvious, but I will adjust it for you. “Not widely caricatured”. And thus was born the stereotype that white people are _disproportionately_ more likely to move the goalposts. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/249 "2014-10-15T15:49:37Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > And thus was born the stereotype that white people are _disproportionately_ more likely to move the goalposts. This coming from someone who had to reverse himself in the claim that during slavery blacks were widely portrayed as violent? Moving goalposts? As I said, it was obvious, but I had to spell it out for you. There are always _some_ people who believe in bigoted caricatures of ethnic minorities (or majorities for that matter). Yet there is no evidence you can show that such beliefs are widespread today. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/250 "2014-10-15T16:10:03Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > This coming from someone who had to reverse himself in the claim that during slavery blacks were widely portrayed as violent? Moving goalposts? I said the view of black people you are advocating is the exact same view that has been advocated since slavery and Reconstruction. It turns out the slavery part was incorrect, and it dates to Reconstruction. I acknowledge it and it doesn’t alter the claim very much, so no, it’s not moving the goalposts. > [@](#): > > As I said, it was obvious It wasn’t, of course. You made a claim and repeated it a couple of times, and when it was demonstrated to be bullshit, you said you’d been saying something else. > [@](#): > > Yet there is no evidence you can show that such beliefs are widespread today. Can you find evidence that they’re rare? I don’t believe there’s a whole lot of polling on how widely individual stereotypes are held, and while it’s easy to find people talking about those stereotypes or deploying them in a thread about policing (is there data for 'rapper type t-shirts getting people killed? I doubt it), actual data is lacking. I can show you this story about a poll where [51% of Americans express anti-black prejudices in the form of applying stereotypes or just reacting negatively to pictures](http://bigstory.ap.org/article/ap-poll-majority-harbor-prejudice-against-blacks), but I don’t see a breakdown showing how each term was applied to each race. The words, of course, are reflect the same sort of stereotypes that have existed in American social discourse for a century and which are also popping up in this thread. But if experience is any guide, you won’t accept that as a cite either. You can’t actually conduct a debate by demanding cites you know don’t exist. That’s the best tactic you have, but it’s a stalling tactic, not an argument. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/251 "2014-10-15T16:28:41Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Wow, you’re a repository of bigotry. Even if you think you’re saying this satirically, you should know better than to insult in Great Debates. Warning issued, don’t do it again. And everyone: keep it polite or else. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/252 "2014-10-15T17:21:53Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Can you find evidence that they’re rare? Asking me to prove a negative? > [@](#): > > You can’t actually conduct a debate by demanding cites you know don’t exist. You can’t actually conduct a debate by claiming things that you cannot back up with cites. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/253 "2014-10-15T17:27:50Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Asking me to prove a negative? You said these views are not widely held, and I’m asking if you can substantiate it. That’s not proving a negative. You’ve asked me to prove that they’re common, and if there’s data out there to do that, the same data could prove that these beliefs are rare. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/254 "2014-10-15T17:30:23Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > You said these views are **not** widely held, and I’m asking if you can substantiate it. That’s not proving a **negative**. Which part of “not” is not clear? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/255 "2014-10-15T17:33:48Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > You said these views are not widely held… No he didn’t - this is just your misreading through error or malice. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/256 "2014-10-15T17:37:33Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Which part of “not” is not clear? The part where you understand what proving a negative is. You asked me to show how common something is, and I’m asking if you can do the same. > [@Shodan](#): > > No he didn’t He did: > [@Terr](#): > > No, I don’t think so. They are not “caricatured” the same way (or any way) today. > [@Terr](#): > > I thought it was obvious, but I will adjust it for you. “Not widely caricatured”. This only works if the person has actually made a reading error, **Shodan**. For example, you seem to have completely failed to read what **Terr** wrote. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/257 "2014-10-15T17:37:59Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Which part of “not” is not clear? Do you really think that any assertion that includes the word ‘not’ is somehow immune to needing a cite because its ‘proving a negative’? Tell me you don’t actually think that. Are these assertions also cite-proof? - the earth does not revolve around the sun. - 4 quarters does not equal one dollar. - 2 + 2 does not equal 4 - Obama is not the president of the U.S. Are you telling me that each of these assertions cannot be challenged for a cite because the word ‘not’ existing in the sentence means that it would be asking to prove a negative? Maybe you’re the one unclear on the implications of the word ‘not’. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/258 "2014-10-15T17:44:55Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > Do you really think that any assertion that includes the word ‘not’ is somehow immune to needing a cite because its ‘proving a negative’? No, but in the absence of proof or any evidence that such caricatures are widely believed, the default position is that they are not. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/259 "2014-10-15T17:48:02Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > No, but in the absence of proof or any evidence that such caricatures are widely believed, the default position is that they are not. There’s plenty of evidence (that’s been cited) that these caricatures were widely believed in the past. In the absence of any evidence that these beliefs have ceased, the default position is that these caricatures are still widely believed. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/260 "2014-10-15T17:50:22Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > No, but in the absence of proof or any evidence that such caricatures are widely believed, the default position is that they are not. We’re not arguing about the default position. You made a claim and I asked if you can back it up. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156.md?page=14)