# Why are young black men in the US 21X more likely to be killed by police than young white men? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 13, 2014, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156 "2014-10-13T01:48:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/301 "2014-10-15T19:59:54Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Yes, and I don’t see the problem with the ads. That was a given. > [@](#): > > Wasn’t Horton story big in MA at the time? I don’t think so. Horton committed those murders in April 1987 and was sentenced to life in prison six months later. National Republicans don’t seem to have become aware of the issue at all until the next year. > [@](#): > > Do you seriously think that if the story was exactly the same but Horton was white, it wouldn’t have been used, politically, against Dukakis? Not to the same extent, no. It just wouldn’t have been as effective. > [@](#): > > I mean, if the ads said something like “Dukakis releases murderers that immediately kill again” and showed some anonymous black actors’ faces with it, I can see how that could be construed as playing on racism. Yes, I know the drill: racism can only be acknowledged if it’s so incredibly obvious and explicit that it rules out every single other factor. And if it’s 1:41 pm on a Tuesday in spring and Mercury is in retrograde and the wind is blowing from the Northeast at 5 to 7 knots. > [@dude77](#): > > if you’re constantly having run ins with people who are committing crimes and more often times than not they happen to be black and dressed a certain way then more often times than not you’re going to start being wary of that certain group … just the same as if they’re having constant run ins with darker skin latinos or even whites who are dressed a certain way … Criminals are not black “more often than not.” This is the end result, and in many cases the intended result, of the arguments being used elsewhere in this thread: people say black people are more likely than white people to commit some types of crime, which is not really true (it’s more accurate to say that people convicted of those crimes are more likely to be black) and this gets boiled down and misunderstood as “most criminals are black.” And then that misunderstanding is used to justify illegal or improper behavior by police or racist attitudes. It does not work that way. > [@](#): > > also, people don’t like to talk about it because folks nowadays think it doesn’t matter how you dress and you should be able to dress however you want even if you look like a total delinquent but first impressions and overall impressions are important and they will influence how someone treats you or perceives you, whether you like it or not … you can definitely do things to fend off suspicion … I’ve dressed or done things in my younger days that made me look suspicious to the police and in some instances I ended up being stopped … I clearly notice the changes before and after changing my attire, attitude and just overall way of going about things So that’s the legal system: the police will do things that are wrong, but the burden is on everyone else to change their behavior. We can’t expect the police to do things differently. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/302 "2014-10-15T20:02:52Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > … and this gets boiled down and misunderstood as “most criminals are black.” How about “most murderers are black”? Or “most robbers are black”? Is that “misunderstood” or is it a fact? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/303 "2014-10-15T20:11:49Z")
Why are you asking questions about a different claim? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/304 "2014-10-15T20:13:12Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Why are you asking questions about a different claim? Just wondering if you think those statements come from “misunderstanding”? What if such statements come from people who haven’t looked at the statistics? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/305 "2014-10-15T20:29:57Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > What if such statements come from people who haven’t looked at the statistics? Who cares? The relevant point is that **dude77** has provided a nice little illustration of how people take the irrelevant piece of data you keep repeating - ‘black people are disproportionately convicted of some crimes’ - and then get the facts completely wrong by saying a majority of criminals are black. This then justifies the police being more likely to hurt or kill black people. > [@Terr](#): > > Yes white people are less scared of white murderers than black ones? Cite? Well, I read somewhere that black kids are 21 times more likely than white kids to be shot and killed by the police. ---
**Author:** ![dude77](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ce73a5/32.png) [@dude77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dude77)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/306 "2014-10-15T20:42:43Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Who cares? The relevant point is that **dude77** has provided a nice little illustration of how people take the irrelevant piece of data you keep repeating - ‘black people are disproportionately convicted of some crimes’ - and then get the facts completely wrong by saying a majority of criminals are black. This then justifies the police being more likely to hurt or kill black people. > > Well, I read somewhere that black kids are 21 times more likely than white kids to be shot and killed by the police. I’m taking the police officer’s pov for a minute … set aside the data and statistics … as I said, if I’m a police officer and I’m constantly having run ins with perps and they all happen to be gangster looking blacks … guess what ? … I’m going to become wary of all these gangster looking blacks … same goes if another group of people are involved … cops aren’t robots … they’re human ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/307 "2014-10-15T20:46:28Z")
> [@dude77](#): > > I’m taking the police officer’s pov for a minute … set aside the data and statistics … Ignore the facts. I sure didn’t see that one coming. > [@](#): > > as I said, if I’m a police officer and I’m constantly having run ins with perps and they all happen to be gangster looking blacks … _But they aren’t._ I understand that people generalize from experience. Do you understand that if you base your comments on a premise that is totally wrong, your argument will also be totally wrong? ---
**Author:** ![dude77](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ce73a5/32.png) [@dude77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dude77)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/308 "2014-10-15T21:03:50Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Ignore the facts. I sure didn’t see that one coming. what does this even mean ? … are police officers supposed to just ignore their own experiences out in the streets and guide themselves by ‘statistics’ ? surely that’s not what you’re suggesting > [@Marley23](#): > > _But they aren’t._ I understand that people generalize from experience. Do you understand that if you base your comments on a premise that is totally wrong, your argument will also be totally wrong? what is wrong about my point ? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/309 "2014-10-15T21:06:43Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > The ad is against “racial quotas” and you’re objecting to them using white actor losing their job to a black person? It’s **racial** quotas they are talking about. I’m saying it’s appealing to stereotypes (and racism) – it’s a racist stereotype to suggest that black people chosen for jobs over white people have inferior qualifications and only got the job because of affirmative action. It was great politics at the time. This tactic won many elections for Republicans (and for Democrats before them). ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/310 "2014-10-15T21:10:21Z")
> [@dude77](#): > > what is wrong about my point ? You suggested that _all the perps_ are “gangster looking blacks”. This isn’t true anywhere in the US. When the vast majority of black people are not criminals and are not violent, it’s not reasonable to treat black people as if they are. Further, treating people like criminals _makes people more likely to be criminals_. If a kid sees police treat his dad like crap, when his dad did nothing wrong, that kid will be just a little more likely to be resentful of the police and do bad things as an adult. By treating black people differently, for those cops who do so, they are making the problem way, way worse. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/311 "2014-10-15T21:14:00Z")
> [@dude77](#): > > what does this even mean ? … are police officers supposed to just ignore their own experiences out in the streets and guide themselves by ‘statistics’ ? surely that’s not what you’re suggesting Yes, what are statistics except collected facts that are open to evaluation and correction that we can use to better understand the world around us? Surely the unscientific impressions of a person that are not backed by data are more reliable. Wait - I just realized that’s absolutely fucking crazy. No, I don’t think the police need to entirely discount their experience on the job. That would be impossible anyway. I also don’t think they should be entirely guided by their impressions. People’s minds are just too vulnerable to all manner of biases. Our brains are designed to generalize based on very little information, so while they sometimes make correct associations, they often make incorrect ones. If a police officer is shot by a guy wearing a green shirt, the next time he sees a person with a green shirt he might be quick on the trigger even though the green shirt is an irrelevant detail. People should not die as a result of those kinds of generalizations. People should not be harassed, arrested, or imprisoned as a result of those kinds of generalizations. > [@](#): > > what is wrong about my point ? _Most criminals are not black._ I don’t know how to make this any more plain. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/312 "2014-10-15T21:20:59Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I’m saying it’s appealing to stereotypes (and racism) – it’s a racist stereotype to suggest that black people chosen for jobs over white people have inferior qualifications and only got the job because of affirmative action. > > It was great politics at the time. This tactic won many elections for Republicans (and for Democrats before them). By definition, one who benefits from affirmative action is 1) a minority and 2) has qualifications that are inferior to others who he or she bumped. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/313 "2014-10-15T21:24:30Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > By definition, one who benefits from affirmative action is 1) a minority and 2) has qualifications that are inferior to others who he or she bumped. You’ve posted anti-affirmative action boilerplate without actually responding to what **iiandyiii** wrote. This thread is positively lousy with people doing that kind of thing. ---
**Author:** ![dude77](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ce73a5/32.png) [@dude77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dude77)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/314 "2014-10-15T21:29:26Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > You suggested that _all the perps_ are “gangster looking blacks”. This isn’t true anywhere in the US. I realize I mentioned ‘all perps’ in one post … but why didn’t you notice the other post where I stated ‘more often times than not’ ? lol I mean the latter obviously … you make a good point about children seeing their parents interactions with police and having that affect them … it’s a bad cycle ---
**Author:** ![dude77](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ce73a5/32.png) [@dude77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dude77)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/315 "2014-10-15T21:30:44Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Yes, what are statistics except collected facts that are open to evaluation and correction that we can use to better understand the world around us? Surely the unscientific impressions of a person that are not backed by data are more reliable. > > Wait - I just realized that’s absolutely fucking crazy. > > No, I don’t think the police need to entirely discount their experience on the job. That would be impossible anyway. I also don’t think they should be entirely guided by their impressions. People’s minds are just too vulnerable to all manner of biases. Our brains are designed to generalize based on very little information, so while they sometimes make correct associations, they often make incorrect ones. If a police officer is shot by a guy wearing a green shirt, the next time he sees a person with a green shirt he might be quick on the trigger even though the green shirt is an irrelevant detail. People should not die as a result of those kinds of generalizations. People should not be harassed, arrested, or imprisoned as a result of those kinds of generalizations. > > I don’t condone harrassing anyone because they’re black … but again, you’re ignoring the human factor … if you’re continuously having run ins with criminals and the great majority of them are black and it is a constant, constant thing, you’re going to pay more attention to suspicious behavior from blacks … that’s just how it is > > _Most criminals are not black._ I don’t know how to make this any more plain. aren’t the majority of violent crimes in the U.S. committed by blacks ? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/316 "2014-10-15T21:30:58Z")
> [@dude77](#): > > I realize I mentioned ‘all perps’ in one post … but why didn’t you notice the other post where I stated ‘more often times than not’ ? lol I mean the latter obviously … They’re both wrong. > [@dude77](#): > > aren’t the majority of violent crimes in the U.S. committed by blacks ? NO. ---
**Author:** ![dude77](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ce73a5/32.png) [@dude77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dude77)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/317 "2014-10-15T21:34:31Z")
I think that there is much room for improvement for police departments as far as their interactions with citizens … the police have a problem treating ALL types of people … not just blacks … but there’s also much improvement needed as far as black crime … the problem is no one wants to discuss that because it is ‘taboo’ to do so, it’s only discussed when people are putting the blame on everyone else but where it is coming from ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/318 "2014-10-15T21:36:22Z")
> [@dude77](#): > > the problem is no one wants to discuss that because it is ‘taboo’ to do so, it’s only discussed when people are putting the blame on everyone else but where it is coming from LOL. We’ve had at least four posters in this thread _insist_ that that’s the only thing they will discuss. ---
**Author:** ![dude77](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ce73a5/32.png) [@dude77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dude77)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/319 "2014-10-15T21:39:01Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > LOL. We’ve had at least four posters in this thread _insist_ that that’s the only thing they will discuss. I’m not talking about this thread … I’m talking in general … you can’t have any honest discussion about it because it just becomes a game of deflection and calling people ‘racist’ or implying that they are ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/320 "2014-10-15T21:44:53Z")
> [@dude77](#): > > I’m not talking about this thread … I’m talking in general … you can’t have any honest discussion about it because it just becomes a game of deflection and calling people ‘racist’ or implying that they are This is just bull. Our society in general would _much_ rather list all the failings of black people as a whole than talk about the problems with the way the police treat black people, the way the justice system hurts them, and so on. We’ve seen exactly that dynamic play out in the aftermath of the Trayvon Martin shooting, the shooting of Michael Brown in Ferguson, and on and on. It’s always the same chorus - thug attitudes, violent crime, where are the fathers, culture of dependency, blah blah blah. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156.md?page=17)