# Why are young black men in the US 21X more likely to be killed by police than young white men? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 13, 2014, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156 "2014-10-13T01:48:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/321 "2014-10-15T21:47:13Z")
> [@dude77](#): > > but there’s also much improvement needed as far as black crime … the problem is no one wants to discuss that because it is ‘taboo’ to do so, it’s only discussed when people are putting the blame on everyone else but where it is coming from Crime comes from criminals. Some of them are black. Crime doesn’t come from black people. The vast majority of black people are not criminals, and are not violent. Disparities in crime statistics are not an indictment on black people – _most black people have nothing to do with this_. When you indict “black crime”, or imply that it’s black people who need to change, you’re indicting _mostly innocent people_. This is always wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/322 "2014-10-15T21:49:13Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > When you indict “black crime”, or imply that it’s black people who need to change, you’re indicting _mostly innocent people_. This is always wrong. It’s just that it’s a wrongheaded indictment- although it is. These statements also justify mistreating a lot of people, up to and including throwing them in jail or killing them. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/323 "2014-10-15T22:07:11Z")
The _ **per capita** _ rate of violent crime is not the same across all racial groups. Trying to say, “A greater \*overall \*number of total crimes is committed by whites” is a skillful statistical distraction. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/324 "2014-10-15T22:20:43Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > The _ **per capita** _ rate of violent crime is not the same across all racial groups. Trying to say, “A greater \*overall \*number of total crimes is committed by whites” is a skillful statistical distraction. This is irrelevant. A statistical disparity exists. This disparity doesn’t justify _any different treatment_ of black people (or anyone else) by the police. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/325 "2014-10-15T22:28:37Z")
As is often the case, this issue boils down to shifting the blame. One side says, “If there were less crime committed by black people, fear of black people would go down.” The other side says, “If there were less prejudice by society, fear of black people would go down.”" ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/326 "2014-10-15T22:40:46Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > By definition, one who benefits from affirmative action is 1) a minority and 2) has qualifications that are inferior to others who he or she bumped. This “definition” is nothing but invented nonsense. Affirmative Action provides opportunities for people who would not otherwise have such opportunities. In the realm of school admissions, people with lower test scores have been provided opportunities not reflected by those scores. However, particularly in employment, the opening of an opportunity to a qualified member of a minority does not stop being Affirmative Action just because they were qualified. It simply means that the opportunity to demonstrate their qualifications would not have occurred without AA. One may make the argument that AA lets in too many unqualified applicants, but declaring that that is the definition of AA is utterly false. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/327 "2014-10-15T23:00:23Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > As is often the case, this issue boils down to shifting the blame. > One side says, “If there were less crime committed by black people, fear of black people would go down.” > > The other side says, “If there were less prejudice by society, fear of black people would go down.”" I don’t care about how people feel. I care about how people act. It’s wrong to treat black people differently. It’s wrong if you’re a cop or not. Further, and as has been said many, many times here, the negative feelings of society (including fear) long predates crime statistics. When these feelings arose, we can confidently say that white-on-black crime was _far more common_ than the reverse. While I’ll always be happy to call on criminals to change their behavior, the vast majority of black people do not bear one iota of blame for any negative feelings towards black people. It’s incumbent on those who mistreat black people to change, period. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/328 "2014-10-15T23:05:09Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > While I’ll always be happy to call on criminals to change their behavior, the vast majority of black people do not bear one iota of blame for any negative feelings towards black people. It’s incumbent on those who mistreat black people to change, period. I \*\*\*hope \*\*\*- but am not optimistic - that everyone in this thread can agree on the following statements: 1. The police should not use lethal force in situations that do not require it - _regardless of race or skin color._ 2. The police should use lethal force in situations that do require it - _regardless of race or skin color._ ---
**Author:** ![1060westaddison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/1/8baadc/32.png) [@1060westaddison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/1060westaddison)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/329 "2014-10-15T23:21:46Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > The _ **per capita** _ rate of violent crime is not the same across all racial groups. Trying to say, “A greater \*overall \*number of total crimes is committed by whites” is a skillful statistical distraction. I’m sure that all things being equal, a police officer _is_ more likely to be in danger when encountering a black person than a white person. So what? Why are law-abiding black people supposed to put up with being treated differently, just because \*other \*black people have done something wrong? If police officers aren’t willing to put their lives in slightly more danger by first trying all practical alternatives to lethal violence, then they should pick a less demanding career. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/330 "2014-10-15T23:29:29Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I’m saying it’s appealing to stereotypes (and racism) – it’s a racist stereotype to suggest that black people chosen for jobs over white people have inferior qualifications and only got the job because of affirmative action. But they didn’t suggest that. They suggested that due to proposed law, someone would get hired because of “racial quotas”. AFAIR, racial quotas were never enacted, were they? > [@](#): > > It was great politics at the time. This tactic won many elections for Republicans (and for Democrats before them). I think it is great politics to be against racial quotas, yes. I believe both Republicans and Democrats are against them now. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/331 "2014-10-15T23:32:13Z")
> [@dude77](#): > > aren’t the majority of violent crimes in the U.S. committed by blacks ? No. Most murders and robberies are, though. For violent crimes, about 40% are committed by blacks. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/332 "2014-10-15T23:39:18Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > This is just bull. Our society in general would _much_ rather list all the failings of black people as a whole than talk about the problems with the way the police treat black people, the way the justice system hurts them, and so on. We’ve seen exactly that dynamic play out in the aftermath of the Trayvon Martin shooting, the shooting of Michael Brown in Ferguson, and on and on. It’s always the same chorus - thug attitudes, violent crime, where are the fathers, culture of dependency, blah blah blah. The question is to what degree is it reasonable for a cop to have a heightened sense of fear/suspicion of a black person? I’ve stated several times that I think skin color is a factor. But one that can be overridden by other cues, like dress. The fact that this discussion arises after incidents like the two you mentioned is truly baffling. Martin was killed in self defense as he was banging Zimmerman’s head into the concrete. Brown just roughed up a store clerk, stole some smokes and was rushing a cop after tussling with him. You seem to want to have the discussion with the basic understanding that, as a group, black males are no different than males of any race. But the statistics prove that to be true only in Unicorn Land. The question here, is does the increased level of crime that black males participate in align with the increased degree to which they wind up being killed by the police? I don’t think anyone knows the answer to that. Ialso think that assuming that it should be 8X is an overly facile conclusion. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/333 "2014-10-15T23:46:30Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > The question is to what degree is it reasonable for a cop to have a heightened sense of fear/suspicion of a black person? To no degree. To act differently because someone is black is wrong. > [@](#): > > I’ve stated several times that I think skin color is a factor. If so, this is wrong. > [@](#): > > You seem to want to have the discussion with the basic understanding that, as a group, black males are no different than males of any race. As a group, black males are mostly decent, law abiding people. In any case, treating people differently because of the racial group they belong to is wrong (as well as foolish). Cops don’t increase their risk _by a single iota_ if they treat everyone the same regardless of race. And, in the long run, they greatly increase their risk by treating individuals that belong to one race worse. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/334 "2014-10-15T23:47:32Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > I \*\*\*hope \*\*\*- but am not optimistic - that everyone in this thread can agree on the following statements: > > 1. The police should not use lethal force in situations that do not require it - _regardless of race or skin color._ > > 2. The police should use lethal force in situations that do require it - _regardless of race or skin color._ I’m sure everyone can agree with such tautological statements. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/335 "2014-10-15T23:57:39Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > To no degree. To act differently because someone is black is wrong. In a perfect world, yes. But we don’t live in a perfect world, where males of all colors break the law equally as often. So, I think it better to say that for a cop, "To act differently because someone is black is unfortunate. But, given the propensity for that one group to be more violent than others, understandable. I don’t mean to minimize the problem with the word "unfortunate. But it is definitely that. I think everyone would like it if that were not the case. But I think it is more reasonable to have black males be less violent than to is to have cops ignore reality. And again I’ll add, that skin color is just one cue, there are others that can override it, like dress. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2014, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/336 "2014-10-16T00:19:48Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > In a perfect world, yes. But we don’t live in a perfect world, where males of all colors break the law equally as often. So, I think it better to say that for a cop, "To act differently because someone is black is unfortunate. But, given the propensity for that one group to be more violent than others, understandable. No it’s not. It doesn’t help cops, and it only makes the situation worse. It doesn’t put them at risk to treat every race the same. There is an appropriate level of wariness – that level of wariness should be applied to _all races_. > [@](#): > > I don’t mean to minimize the problem with the word "unfortunate. But it is definitely that. It is unfortunate, as well as foolish, counterproductive, damaging to society, and many other negative adjectives. > [@](#): > > I think everyone would like it if that were not the case. But I think it is more reasonable to have black males be less violent than to is to have cops ignore reality. Most black males are non-violent. It doesn’t help in any way to treat them differently – it only can hurt – so there’s no reason for cops not to treat everyone the same. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2014, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/337 "2014-10-16T05:29:57Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > This “definition” is nothing but invented nonsense. > > Affirmative Action provides opportunities for people who would not otherwise have such opportunities. In the realm of school admissions, people with lower test scores have been provided opportunities not reflected by those scores. However, particularly in employment, the opening of an opportunity to a qualified member of a minority does not stop being Affirmative Action just because they were qualified. It simply means that the opportunity to demonstrate their qualifications would not have occurred without AA. > One may make the argument that AA lets in too many unqualified applicants, but declaring that that is the definition of AA is utterly false. Your rebuttal is what is nonsense. For an individual to benefit from affirmative action, they must be part of a minority that the AA is trying to help. Correct? Correct! And if that individual benefitted from the AA, a more qualified candidate must have gotten bumped. Because if the beneficiary of AA did _not_ have lesser qualification, then he, or she, got the job _without_ AA coming into play. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2014, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/338 "2014-10-16T05:35:42Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Most black males are non-violent. It doesn’t help in any way to treat them differently – it only can hurt – so there’s no reason for cops not to treat everyone the same. You keep repeating this as if it’s all that matters. It’s not. Black males, as a group, are WAY more violent than, say, White males. That is a fact. And one that is fairly well none, especially, I’d say, by those in law enforcement. So, to expect a cop to not have a higher sense of apprehension when stopping a black male is odd in the extreme. It goes against human nature. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2014, 9:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/339 "2014-10-16T09:33:07Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > And if that individual benefitted from the AA, a more qualified candidate must have gotten bumped. Because if the beneficiary of AA did _not_ have lesser qualification, then he, or she, got the job _without_ AA coming into play. This is the part that’s wrong. In many cases, they wouldn’t have gotten the job in the first place, because the employer never would have considered hiring them. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2014, 9:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/340 "2014-10-16T09:38:37Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > You keep repeating this as if it’s all that matters. It’s not. Black males, as a group, are WAY more violent than, say, White males. That is a fact. Doesn’t matter. Most black males are non-violent. Individuals should not be judged or treated differently _at all_ based on the group they belong to. > [@](#): > > So, to expect a cop to not have a higher sense of apprehension when stopping a black male is odd in the extreme. It goes against human nature. The good cops already treat everyone the same. Further, I’m not worried about how people feel – it’s how they act that should change (in these cases). They can feel anything they want – but black people should not be treated any differently. Again again again – cops risk _nothing whatsoever_ by treating everyone the same. It harms _no one_. And they _make the future worse_, including risking the safety of future cops, by treating black people worse. It’s a simple assertion – black people should be treated the same as white people. On its face, nearly everyone agrees with this assertion. Why should it be different for cops? No one loses. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156.md?page=18)