# Why are young black men in the US 21X more likely to be killed by police than young white men? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 13, 2014, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156 "2014-10-13T01:48:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 21
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2014, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/401 "2014-10-16T16:08:04Z")
> [@TommyzNR](#): > > To find out if the 21x statistic is alarming you would have to produce statistics on how people react when confronted by police and then compare if the police response (to any particular reaction) is different according to race. Of course the OP wouldn’t be the ones producing these statistics. The police would. So the police would also have to collect reliable data on how they confront people, where those people are, and how the police themselves respond to those situations. We already know the police don’t compile data on who they are shooting. Does anyone see a potential problem with this system? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2014, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/402 "2014-10-16T16:23:49Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > _That’s not the question._ No. I strongly disagree. As I said, just because we lack a formal metric for wariness doesn’t mean that we can’t dial it up or down. Better? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2014, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/403 "2014-10-16T16:25:25Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > No. I strongly disagree. As I said, just because we lack a formal metric for wariness doesn’t mean that we can’t dial it up or down. > > Better? You’re still not responding to the actual question. **Steophan** said cops approaching black men should be 6 to 14 times more wary (nevermind that that number might be made up). If we can’t dial wariness up precisely, how does that even mean anything? ---
**Author:** ![TommyzNR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@TommyzNR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TommyzNR)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2014, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/404 "2014-10-16T16:26:26Z")
OK the OP should present and not produce…….your snark is why I love and hate this site. Anyway that’s kind of my point. How could the police possibly provide statistics in these very real factors on the outcome of any given stop or arrest? There are too many factors in why someone might get shot by a police officer to know if the 21x statistic is alarming or not. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2014, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/405 "2014-10-16T16:28:25Z")
> [@TommyzNR](#): > > OK the OP should present and not produce…….your snark is why I love and hate this site. > > Anyway that’s kind of my point. How could the police possibly provide statistics in these very real factors on the outcome of any given stop or arrest? > > There are too many factors in why someone might get shot by a police officer to know if the 21x statistic is alarming or not. This makes it awfully (and conveniently) easy to dismiss any concerns. The fact that most police forces don’t record (or promulgate) any such data at all, alone, should be extremely concerning. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2014, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/406 "2014-10-16T16:32:37Z")
> [@TommyzNR](#): > > Anyway that’s kind of my point. How could the police possibly provide statistics in these very real factors on the outcome of any given stop or arrest? Maybe we could start by asking them to produce statistics they could actually be expected to produce, like how many people they kill every year, and go from there. > [@](#): > > There are too many factors in why someone might get shot by a police officer to know if the 21x statistic is alarming or not. I don’t agree. A statistic like this needs to be justified because it suggests there could be a very serious problem, and a shrug is not a sufficient response to that. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2014, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/407 "2014-10-16T16:35:46Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Can anyone besides **Steophan** make any sense of the 12-28 number? He sure can’t explain it. Can someone else give it a try? I’m still wondering about this. Can anyone else explain the 12-28 figure? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2014, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/408 "2014-10-16T16:39:38Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > It works out perfectly. Based on the stats in this thread, young black men commit at least twice as much crime as other people, and are 6-14 times more likely to be violent. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > It’s 6 to 9 – the 14 had no basis. **Terr** said on the first page that young black men were 14 times more likely to commit murder. If that was borne out, then **Steophan** is just conflating murder with violence. ---
**Author:** ![TommyzNR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@TommyzNR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TommyzNR)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2014, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/409 "2014-10-16T17:08:35Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > This makes it awfully (and conveniently) easy to dismiss any concerns. The fact that most police forces don’t record (or promulgate) any such data at all, alone, should be extremely concerning. This also makes it awfully (and conveniently) easy to have recreational outrage over this statistic. The fact that most police forces don’t record (or promulgate) any such data would be extremely concerning if police shootings were not so rare. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2014, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/410 "2014-10-16T17:10:13Z")
> [@TommyzNR](#): > > This also makes it awfully (and conveniently) easy to have recreational outrage over this statistic. The fact that most police forces don’t record (or promulgate) any such data would be extremely concerning if police shootings were not so rare. We don’t know how rare they are. We only know of the ~1200 deadly police shootings captured by federal stats between 2010 and 2012. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2014, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/411 "2014-10-16T17:13:58Z")
> [@TommyzNR](#): > > The fact that most police forces don’t record (or promulgate) any such data would be extremely concerning if police shootings were not so rare. I think it’s extremely concerning if the police are far more likely to kill a black person than a young one and that disparity is out of all proportion with crime stats. You can believe both that this data is not reliable and that there _should_ be reliable data, but weirdly nobody in this thread has taken that position. And yes, it’s absurd to insist that these killings are rare when the people who do the killing won’t keep track of how often it happens. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2014, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/412 "2014-10-16T17:24:48Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I think it’s extremely concerning if the police are far more likely to kill a black person than a young one Of course this was supposed to say “young black person than a young white one.” ---
**Author:** ![TommyzNR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@TommyzNR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TommyzNR)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2014, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/413 "2014-10-16T17:30:44Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > We don’t know how rare they are. We only know of the ~1200 deadly police shootings captured by federal stats between 2010 and 2012. If you have evidence that the police are secretly going around and shooting people please present it. Your statistic is what police departments report to the FBI each year. ---
**Author:** ![TommyzNR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@TommyzNR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TommyzNR)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2014, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/414 "2014-10-16T17:31:55Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Of course this was supposed to say “young black person than a young white one.” I debated calling you on it. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2014, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/415 "2014-10-16T17:32:49Z")
> [@TommyzNR](#): > > If you have evidence that the police are secretly going around and shooting people please present it. Request for clarification: upon reading this, am I supposed to laugh or cry? ---
**Author:** ![TommyzNR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@TommyzNR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TommyzNR)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2014, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/416 "2014-10-16T17:36:23Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I think it’s extremely concerning if the police are far more likely to kill a black person than a young one and that disparity is out of all proportion with crime stats. You can believe both that this data is not reliable and that there _should_ be reliable data, but weirdly nobody in this thread has taken that position. And yes, it’s absurd to insist that these killings are rare when the people who do the killing won’t keep track of how often it happens. I am calling you on this though…I say there is too little information to be extremely concerned at this point. However, that is a matter of perspective which doesn’t exist in most debates on this or any other topic at SDMB. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2014, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/417 "2014-10-16T17:39:03Z")
> [@TommyzNR](#): > > I am calling you on this though…I say there is too little information to be extremely concerned at this point. Then we need to gather more information, and you’ve already said that’s unfeasible or impossible. So where does that leave us exactly? ‘Don’t worry about who the police are shooting because they say they’re not shooting a lot of people?’ ---
**Author:** ![TommyzNR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@TommyzNR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TommyzNR)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2014, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/418 "2014-10-16T17:41:25Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Request for clarification: upon reading this, am I supposed to laugh or cry? Originally Posted by iiandyiiii We don’t know how rare they are. We only know of the ~1200 deadly police shootings captured by federal stats between 2010 and 2012. It is right there in his post, the implication that the police do not accurately report officer involved shootings to the FBI. So laugh or cry if you like, I am curious why anyone would question the FBI data. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2014, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/419 "2014-10-16T17:42:59Z")
> [@TommyzNR](#): > > It is right there in his post, the implication that the police do not accurately report officer involved shootings to the FBI. [We know for a fact that they don’t.](http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2014/09/08/how-many-police-shootings-a-year-no-one-knows/) ---
**Author:** ![TommyzNR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@TommyzNR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TommyzNR)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2014, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/420 "2014-10-16T17:50:17Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Then we need to gather more information, and you’ve already said that’s unfeasible or impossible. So where does that leave us exactly? ‘Don’t worry about who the police are shooting because they say they’re not shooting a lot of people?’ Yes, more information needed. AND yes that should have been the debate, how do we gather data that will tell us if the 21x data is reasonable, extreme or even possibly shows great restraint by our law enforcement. The data I think we would need to make these determinations is very subjective which would make it invalid in the skeptical eye. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156.md?page=20) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156.md?page=22)