# Why are young black men in the US 21X more likely to be killed by police than young white men? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 13, 2014, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156 "2014-10-13T01:48:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2014, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/161 "2014-10-14T17:55:29Z")
With this particular prejudice, both sides have to do their part to reduce it. If there were a steep decrease in crime committed by African-Americans for a decade or so - _regardless of poverty or circumstances_ - that could do much to reduce the black-crime image. And if there were a steep decrease in prejudice by everyone else - that might just further itself. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2014, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/162 "2014-10-14T18:00:13Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > With this particular prejudice, both sides have to do their part to reduce it. Both “sides”? They’re not equivalent. One is an occupation that is organized and supposed to be trained to deal with people in difficult situations. The other is a racial/ethnic demographic. > [@](#): > > If there were a steep decrease in crime committed by African-Americans for a decade or so - _regardless of poverty or circumstances_ - that could do much to reduce the black-crime image. I sincerely doubt this. The stereotype of young black men as dangerous long predates reliable crime statistics – why would you believe it would go away if crime statistics changed? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2014, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/163 "2014-10-14T18:11:01Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > If there were a steep decrease in crime committed by African-Americans for a decade or so - _regardless of poverty or circumstances_ - that could do much to reduce the black-crime image. Bullshit. [Violent crime has been going down for decades](http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm), [including violent crime committed by or against black people](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/24/black-america-2013_n_3639934.html). But this image hasn’t gone anywhere because it’s too well-entrenched and too useful. People who think society will be less biased against black people if black people just act different are wrong, and also ignorant of history. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2014, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/164 "2014-10-14T18:17:48Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > People who think society will be less biased against black people if black people just act different are wrong, and also ignorant of history. We’ll have to wait and see. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2014, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/165 "2014-10-14T18:20:18Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > But is one racial group committing more crime than the others? > If a city goes from 10,000 crimes a year to 2,000 a year, then overall crime has decreased, but in both cases, if one racial group was still committing more crime than the others, the perception will persist. The perception existed long before such statistics were available. Why would it be reasonable to believe this perception would go away if the statistics changed? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2014, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/166 "2014-10-14T18:24:32Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > But is one racial group committing more crime than the others? Yes. White people commit far more violent crime because they’re far more numerous. > [@](#): > > If a city goes from 10,000 crimes a year to 2,000 a year, then overall crime has decreased, but in both cases, if one racial group was still committing more crime than the others, the perception will persist. The perception existed before the crime statistics did, and it will continue to exist as long as it’s useful to the people perpetuating it. Note the way you’ve already moved the goal posts here. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2014, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/167 "2014-10-14T18:24:50Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > The perception existed long before such statistics were available. Crime existed before people started keeping statistics. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2014, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/168 "2014-10-14T18:29:31Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Crime existed before people started keeping statistics. So you believe black people tended to be more violent than white people during the eras of slavery and Jim Crow? ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2014, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/169 "2014-10-14T18:36:36Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Why would it be reasonable to believe this perception would go away if the statistics changed? Time erases or changes many perceptions. Right now, Asians don’t have a reputation for being particularly sports-minded, for instance, but if millions of Asians suddenly began pursuing sports all the time, and if for many decades, 50% of all athletes in the NBA, NFL and NHL were Asian, well then, that perception would probably change. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2014, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/170 "2014-10-14T18:39:13Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Time erases or changes many perceptions. Yes. For example centuries ago, many people believed Jews were untrustworthy, clannish outsiders who dominated the world of finance. Today… hmm, shit. That perception hasn’t changed. Weird. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2014, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/171 "2014-10-14T18:39:34Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > The perception existed long before such statistics were available. Why would it be reasonable to believe this perception would go away if the statistics changed? The perception is not based on “statistics”. It is based on reality. Statistics reflect reality, they don’t generate it. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2014, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/172 "2014-10-14T18:39:51Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Time erases or changes many perceptions. Right now, Asians don’t have a reputation for being particularly sports-minded, for instance, but if millions of Asians suddenly began pursuing sports all the time, and if for many decades, 50% of all athletes in the NBA, NFL and NHL were Asian, well then, that perception would probably change. So what? Are you implying that racial stereotypes that have existed since the times of slavery – black males as violent, aggressive, lustful towards white women, etc. – are due to reasonable perceptions of behavior? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2014, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/173 "2014-10-14T18:40:52Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > The perception is not based on “statistics”. It is based on reality. Statistics reflect reality, they don’t generate it. So ‘perceptions’ about Jews throughout human history are based on reality? How about perceptions that black men can’t be trusted not to rape white women? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2014, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/174 "2014-10-14T18:50:07Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > The perception is not based on “statistics”. That’s true. For example this “perception” makes no room for the precipitous drop in crime over the last few decades. In general it doesn’t leave any room for history, because [if you look at history and see that black people have been caricatured pretty much the same exact way for several centuries](http://www.ferris.edu/Jimcrow/violence.htm), it becomes obvious that the perception isn’t based on statistics or reality. It’s a useful belief that will incorporate statistics when it’s convenient, but will make stuff up when there aren’t statistics handy. And of course any perception that black people are more violent has to leave out long stretches of American history - say anything that happened before the 1960s. Because before that it was pretty obvious who was being violent toward whom, and yet society did not stereotype white people as violent and greedy. The society was and still is majority-white, so how would that even happen? Apparently people think stereotypes and prejudices just spring to life in a vacuum - that they’re not created and perpetuated. They fall out of the sky or something. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2014, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/175 "2014-10-14T18:54:29Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > So ‘perceptions’ about Jews throughout human history are based on reality? How about perceptions that black men can’t be trusted not to rape white women? Yes. Such perceptions are based on real incidents, history and people’s life experiences. They may be utterly incorrect perceptions, but there is always a basis. Jews were, in fact, forced into financial sectors in a lot of countries because of being denied entry into other sectors. Judaism is non-proselytizing and insular, and a lot of Christians viewed continued existence of Jews as a challenge to the validity of their religion. And I am sure there were _some_ incidences of rape involving black men and white women. Now, when you have statistics you can look on whether the basis for such perceptions is valid or not. But the statistics do not cause the perceptions. They can only confirm or contradict them. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2014, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/176 "2014-10-14T18:55:54Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > That’s true. For example this “perception” makes no room for the precipitous drop in crime over the last few decades. Is there a precipitous drop in proportion of crime committed by black youths to that committed by white youths? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2014, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/177 "2014-10-14T18:58:12Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Yes. Such perceptions are based on real incidents, history and people’s life experiences. They’re also based on fake incidents, fake history, and people’s fictional experiences. > [@](#): > > They may be utterly incorrect perceptions, but there is always a basis. That basis is very often not legitimate at all. > [@](#): > > And I am sure there were _some_ incidences of rape involving black men and white women. Far more black women, during slavery, were raped by white men than the reverse. And yet there’s no perception that white men can’t bet trusted not to rape black women. Why do you think this is the case? > [@](#): > > Now, when you have statistics you can look on whether the basis for such perceptions is valid or not. But the statistics do not cause the perceptions. They can only confirm or contradict them. We have statistics on slave ownership. That tells us that most black people in the south at the time were victims of violence from white people. And yet there’s no accompanying cultural perception that white people are extremely violent towards black people. Why do you think this is the case? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2014, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/178 "2014-10-14T19:01:04Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Yes. Such perceptions are based on real incidents, history and people’s life experiences. They may be utterly incorrect perceptions, but there is always a basis. It sounds like you’re agreeing that the basis is actually irrelevant because the perception can run totally counter to the reality even if there was some initial basis for the perception. There is a historical basis for Jewish people working in finance. To my knowledge there is no basis for the belief that Jews are duplicitous cheapskates who control world affairs through a Swiss financial cabal. If we’re discussing a bogus stereotype, you can’t use a nugget of factual basis as evidence that it’s true. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2014, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/179 "2014-10-14T19:07:19Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Far more black women, \*\*during slavery, \*\*were raped by white men than the reverse. And yet there’s no perception that white men can’t bet trusted not to rape black women. Why do you think this is the case? Because people today don’t really remember something from 170 years ago. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2014, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156/180 "2014-10-14T19:08:33Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Because people today don’t really remember something from 170 years ago. This perception about white people never existed. We have contemporary writings and reports that the negative perceptions about black people existed back then. Why do you think, in a time when white-on-black rape, and white-on-black violence, were far, far more common than black-on-white rape and violence, it was black people and not white people who were the victims of these negative “perceptions”? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-young-black-men-in-the-us-21x-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-young-white-men/701156.md?page=10)