# Why aren't child car seat alarms mandatory? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 3, 2014, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-child-car-seat-alarms-mandatory/692297 "2014-07-03T20:05:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2015, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-child-car-seat-alarms-mandatory/692297/43 "2015-08-19T20:47:15Z")
> [@TroutMan](#): > > Yes, cars are safer now than in 1996. How does that lead to “no decrease in fatalities by putting car seats in the back?” Were car seats placed in the front in 1996? And how are pedestrian deaths related to the relative safety of front seat versus rear seat in any way? Well, look at the stats. There has been a general decrease in traffic fatalities overall, in all age groups. If child seats in back led to a large decrease in fatalities, then those age groups would show a steeper decline. They dont. Ipso facto, the stats do not indicate that child seats in back have led to a significant decrease in fatalities. ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2015, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-child-car-seat-alarms-mandatory/692297/44 "2015-08-19T21:21:40Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > If child seats in back led to a large decrease in fatalities, then those age groups would show a steeper decline. This is true _ **only if during the same period there was large decrease in the frequency of child seats placed in the front** _. You don’t have statistics showing the front vs back placement of child seats in 1996 versus now, so how can you make any statement about its impact on fatality rates? Stick to advocating for research on the matter, and I’ll agree with you. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2015, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-child-car-seat-alarms-mandatory/692297/45 "2015-08-19T22:35:22Z")
> [@TroutMan](#): > > This is true _ **only if during the same period there was large decrease in the frequency of child seats placed in the front** _. You don’t have statistics showing the front vs back placement of child seats in 1996 versus now, so how can you make any statement about its impact on fatality rates? > > Stick to advocating for research on the matter, and I’ll agree with you. I am not saying there was a \*decrease in the frequency \*, but this was during the period people started stumping heavily for putting the seat in the back. I _assume_ there was an increase in the frequency, and i know of at least one Mom (I still have white hair for that ride) who did so. Perhaps my assumption is incorrect, but it seems logical, doesnt it? In any case, the program asking for child seats in the back doesnt seem to have led to a decrease in child fatalities. But we both agree they need to look at the whole issue- I am pretty sure they never thought in a million years that there’d be a small but significant % of people leaving their kids in the car due to the back seat issue. That’s new data, and it has to be considered. ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2015, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-child-car-seat-alarms-mandatory/692297/46 "2015-08-19T23:18:16Z")
> [@janeleonard](#): > > It does need to be made mandatory that helps in keeping the kids safe ans secure. The necessary laws should be enforced to make sure it is made mandatory. Seriously? Ok how are you going attach it to the car? A wire that plugs in? What if the parents forget to plug in the wire? Infant seats now a days lift off a base and hook to a stroller so this isn’t a trivial issue? Bluetooth? Ever have your phone fail to connect to your car? I have. Next the system is going to have be standardized a cross car makes and car seats. That will take 3 years or so to write the standards and 3 years for the car makers to implement. Right now the 2016 models are about to go on sale so in mid 2021 you will be able to buy a car and a seat so equipped. So out of those 20 babies that die from being forgotten each year how many were in a brand new car? One? Two? Young people tend to have children. Young people as a group don’t have tons of money and tend to drive older cars. So it be 2025 or 2030 before you start to have an impact. Right now infant seats systems cost $250-$450 dollars. And can guarantee you you are looking at way over an extra few bucks for this magic system. > [@DrDeth](#): > > Just skip the stupid idea of putting the kid in the back seat. Put the kid up front, where Mom doesnt have to be constantly reaching back around to check on the tyke, and where the kid will not be forgotten. > > Yes, there is a small extra margin of safety in back. But it’s more than eaten up by the extra chance of getting into a accident by a Mom constantly reaching back there, or by accidentally leaving the kid in the car. Living up to your name I see. A child in the front seat will be killed by the passenger airbag deploying. In a rearward facing seat the seat will be accelerated backward @ about 80 Gs. Instant dead kid. When passenger airbags first came out there were a number of deaths of children in the front seat of cars when the bag deployed. The government mandated that the airbag system be able to detect if a child is in the front seat and turn the airbag off. We have these systems now and they bring their own problems. First off if you cinch the child seat into the car seat hard enough it can turn the bag on. Oops. Secondly if you have a small stature adult and they slump in the seat it can turn the bag off. ( fairly common complaint BTW) Finally these system are expensive. I was assisting a technician today on an occupant detection system. It needed $1700 in parts to make it operational. That a far cry from the OP’s $40 bucks in parts. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2015, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-child-car-seat-alarms-mandatory/692297/47 "2015-08-19T23:23:33Z")
> [@Rick](#): > > Living up to your name I see. > A child in the front seat will be killed by the passenger airbag deploying. In a rearward facing seat the seat will be accelerated backward @ about 80 Gs. Instant dead kid. > When passenger airbags first came out there were a number of deaths of children in the front seat of cars when the bag deployed. > The government mandated that the airbag system be able to detect if a child is in the front seat and turn the airbag off. > We have these systems now and they bring their own problems. First off if you cinch the child seat into the car seat hard enough it can turn the bag on. Oops. Secondly if you have a small stature adult and they slump in the seat it can turn the bag off. ( fairly common complaint BTW) > Finally these system are expensive. I was assisting a technician today on an occupant detection system. It needed $1700 in parts to make it operational. That a far cry from the OP’s $40 bucks in parts. Yes, and I mentioned that. It’s only rear-ward facing baby seats, and only if the airbag goes off, and there are detectors and ways for you to turn it off. ---
**Author:** ![TBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c89c15/32.png) [@TBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TBG)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2015, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-child-car-seat-alarms-mandatory/692297/48 "2015-08-19T23:50:11Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Just skip the stupid idea of putting the kid in the back seat. Put the kid up front, where Mom doesnt have to be constantly reaching back around to check on the tyke, and where the kid will not be forgotten. > > Yes, there is a small extra margin of safety in back. But it’s more than eaten up by the extra chance of getting into a accident by a Mom constantly reaching back there, or by accidentally leaving the kid in the car. Put a kid in the front? Oh no no no, that’s worse than letting a kid ride a bike without a helmet, or walk to the park, or play in the front yard. ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2015, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-child-car-seat-alarms-mandatory/692297/49 "2015-08-19T23:54:19Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Yes, and I mentioned that. It’s only rear-ward facing baby seats, and only if the airbag goes off, and there are detectors and ways for you to turn it off. Well in the early years there were no sensors and no way to turn the system off. Also if you had read carefully I said that the system is NOT foolproof. It can be fooled into thinking there is an adult in the seat when there is a child and the systems can and do out of adjustment. I’m working tech support for a major car maker right now. I get these calls on a regular basis. And with my knowledge base (which is far greater on this subject than yours) there is no way in hell I would put a child in the front seat of a car that had a passenger airbag. Go look at any modern car. There are warning placards on the sun visors (sometimes on both sides) over the airbag when the car is new and sometimes on the side of the dash that say don’t put a child seat in the front seat of the car. Oh and the bag is too violent for children in a foreword facing seat also. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2015, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-child-car-seat-alarms-mandatory/692297/50 "2015-08-20T01:53:42Z")
> [@Rick](#): > > Well in the early years there were no sensors and no way to turn the system off. > Also if you had read carefully I said that the system is NOT foolproof. It can be fooled into thinking there is an adult in the seat when there is a child and the systems can and do out of adjustment. > I’m working tech support for a major car maker right now. I get these calls on a regular basis. And with my knowledge base (which is far greater on this subject than yours) there is no way in hell I would put a child in the front seat of a car that had a passenger airbag. > Go look at any modern car. There are warning placards on the sun visors (sometimes on both sides) over the airbag when the car is new and sometimes on the side of the dash that say don’t put a child seat in the front seat of the car. > Oh and the bag is too violent for children in a foreword facing seat also. Rick, I know you’re a car expert, so I wont disagree with you on this. I do disagree with forward facing baby seats as I have seen nothing on that. But ride with Mom with a fussy baby in the back someday, and you’ll learn something about Mothers and babies! ---
**Author:** ![snfaulkner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snfaulkner/32/433_2.png) [@snfaulkner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snfaulkner)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2015, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-child-car-seat-alarms-mandatory/692297/51 "2015-08-20T02:04:46Z")
Yet another problem solved for free by not having kids. ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2015, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-child-car-seat-alarms-mandatory/692297/52 "2015-08-20T02:07:43Z")
You haven’t looked very far. [http://www.cdc.gov/features/passengersafety/](http://www.cdc.gov/features/passengersafety/) > [@](#): > > seat. When children outgrow their rear-facing seats they should be buckled in a forward-facing car seat, in the **back seat** , until at least age 5 or when they reach the upper weight or height limit of their particular seat. Check the seat’s owner’s manual and/or labels on the seat for weight and height limits. > Age 5 up until seat belts fit properly – Booster seat. Once children outgrow their forward-facing seat (by reaching the upper height or weight limit of their seat), they should be buckled in a belt positioning booster seat until seat belts fit properly. Seat belts fit properly when the lap belt lays across the upper thighs (not the stomach) and the shoulder belt lays across the chest (not the neck). Remember to keep children properly buckled in the **back seat** for the best possible protection. Bolding mine ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2015, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-child-car-seat-alarms-mandatory/692297/53 "2015-08-20T17:17:23Z")
> [@Rick](#): > > You haven’t looked very far. > [http://www.cdc.gov/features/passengersafety/](http://www.cdc.gov/features/passengersafety/) > Bolding mine Yes, I know they suggest the back seat. What I have not seen is anything that sez a forward facing seat in the front seat is in especial danger due to the front airbag. ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2015, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-child-car-seat-alarms-mandatory/692297/54 "2015-08-20T17:59:03Z")
Again you haven’t looked very far. From the NHTSA > [@](#): > > Air bags can be dangerous to children 12 and under. Passenger-side air bags inflate at speeds up to 140 miles per hour (mph) – faster than the blink of an eye. That blast of energy can severely hurt or kill children 12 and under who are too close to the air bag during inflation. If a child is unbelted, too small for the lap and shoulder belt to fit properly, or incorrectly restrained or positioned in a child safety seat, there is a danger that the child will be too close to the dashboard during the instant that the air bag inflates. This could result in serious injury or death. Pre-crash braking and steering are the usual reasons they move too close to the dashboard. This turns a minor 10 mph crash into a 140 mph head impact with the air bag. The hole you are in is fairly deep, maybe you should stop digging. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2015, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-child-car-seat-alarms-mandatory/692297/55 "2015-08-20T18:10:56Z")
> [@Rick](#): > > Again you haven’t looked very far. > From the NHTSA > The hole you are in is fairly deep, maybe you should stop digging. Still doesnt say that forward facing child seats are dangerous, just that if he is incorrectly positioned in a car seat… “If a child is unbelted, too small for the lap and shoulder belt to fit properly, or _incorrectly_ restrained or positioned in a child safety seat” ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2015, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-child-car-seat-alarms-mandatory/692297/56 "2015-08-20T18:40:04Z")
DrDeth, your insistence in pushing the “front seat is safer” idea is odd. There is plenty of evidence that children do not do well with airbags. [Children up to 14 years of age may be at risk for serious preventable injury when seated in front of a passenger air bag.](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15930219) [Distance from the air bag is the most important factor in preventing air bag injuries,](http://www.webmd.com/children/news/20070516/air-bag-injury-risk-linked-to-height) i.e. a front-facing seat that positions the rider closer to the airbag is a bad idea. [And front facing in general is not as safe as rear facing.](http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/babies-kids/baby-toddler/convertible-car-seats/rear-facing-longer-is-better/convertible-car-seats-rear-facing.htm) ---
**Author:** ![purplehearingaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7bcc69/32.png) [@purplehearingaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/purplehearingaid)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2015, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-child-car-seat-alarms-mandatory/692297/57 "2015-08-20T19:22:28Z")
> [@johnpost](#): > > better is a dog shock collar, worn by driver, controlled by a proximity detector linked to the car seat. I like your idea better ! ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2015, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-child-car-seat-alarms-mandatory/692297/58 "2015-08-21T03:34:48Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > I’m trained as an electronics tech and even our school included logic circuits. It’s trivially easy to rig up a pressure plate, cover it in foam and fabric. Place in child’s car seat. If the engine of that is car is turned off and there’s more than 4lbs on that plate sound a buzzer alarm. After 5 minutes sound the car’s horn > > They could even include a temperature check. If the car is turned off, over 4lbs, and the interior temp is over 85 degrees than sound a siren alarm. Something that people could hear a block away and can’t be ignored. It needs to be a unique sounding alarm that only signals a child in distress. There should never be anything in a car seat except a child. Better still, just build the child’s car seat with an automatic ejector, and an ejector hatch above it in the roof of the car. The same technology that inflates the front-seat airbags could also be use to inflate the child’s car seat parachute. ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2015, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-child-car-seat-alarms-mandatory/692297/59 "2015-08-21T03:38:48Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Still doesnt say that forward facing child seats are dangerous, just that if he is incorrectly positioned in a car seat… “If a child is unbelted, too small for the lap and shoulder belt to fit properly, or _incorrectly_ restrained or positioned in a child safety seat” I have provided several authoritative cites showing to not put a child in the front seat. Here is one more. It is against the law. [California Safety Laws - Cell Phone, Seat Belt, & Car Seat | DMV.ORG](http://www.dmv.org/ca-california/safety-laws.php) > [@](#): > > As of January 1, 2012, all children must ride in car seat or booster seat until they are at least 8 years old or at least 4 feet 9 inches tall. In addition, all kids younger than 8 years old, must be secured in the back seat. So at this point YOU provide a cite proving your point. Or you can put down the shovel. ---
**Author:** ![GusNSpot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gusnspot/32/436_2.png) [@GusNSpot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GusNSpot)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2015, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-child-car-seat-alarms-mandatory/692297/60 "2015-08-21T05:35:50Z")
Leave little kids at home. Drive better. Use safer roads even if slower. Buy a Volvo. #1 question: What is max safety worth to you for your kids? ---
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2015, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-child-car-seat-alarms-mandatory/692297/61 "2015-08-21T15:58:53Z")
Forward facing is riskier than rear facing, even without the airbag issue - while it’s legal to forward face at 1 the AAP wants you to do it until 2 and as longer as possible. The danger is internal decapitation - most accidents involve a sudden stop, and if you had a weak neck would you prefer to be flung against straps or against a cushioned molded protective seat back? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2015, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-child-car-seat-alarms-mandatory/692297/62 "2015-08-21T17:59:35Z")
> [@Rick](#): > > I have provided several authoritative cites showing to not put a child in the front seat. > Here is one more. It is against the law. [California Safety Laws - Cell Phone, Seat Belt, & Car Seat | DMV.ORG](http://www.dmv.org/ca-california/safety-laws.php) > > So at this point YOU provide a cite proving your point. Or you can put down the shovel. _Sigh._ I am not in any way disagreeing that many people _say_ it’s dangerous to have a kid in the front seat, or that it may be illegal, or that air bags make backward facing car seats dangerous. You are not reading my posts carefully. What I am saying is that (other than air bags make backward facing car seats dangerous) is that I think they have ignored the fact the putting the kid in the back seat makes the mother constantly turn around to pay attention to a fussy child. \*\* IN CASE OF A ACCIDENT the back seat is certainly safer\*\*- but I think that putting the kid in the back increases the chance of a accident (_and greatly increases the chance that a baby will be accidentally left in the car, to die_) so much that putting the kid in the back seat does not and has not reduced child fatalities. The stats show as much.\*\* Putting kids in the back seat has not reduced child fatalities. \*\* Why is this, if it so much safer? Well, some say it due to the fact that most seats are improperly used. Maybe. I have a alternate proposal. Now, I have not seen anything that shows that a child in a front-facing seat is in any particular danger from a front airbag. The only additional danger is the fact that “riding shotgun” is a more dangerous place to be - for anyone- IN THE CASE OF A ACCIDENT . But just like it was shown that big SUVs are not actually safer than family sedans (yes, in certain types of crashes, the bigger the vehicle the better. But large SUV’s had a much higher accident rate -rollovers-than family sedans, and thus the tiny amount of added safety in certain uncommon crashes was more than offset by the higher accident rate)\* it may well be that the small amount of extra safety of putting the kiddo in the backseat is offset by a higher accident rate and by the dangers of accidentally leaving the kid in the vehicle. \* What is needed is a study to see if they are higher accident rates and to see if the _extra safety by the back seat_ is offset by the dangers of leaving the kid in the car accidentally. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-child-car-seat-alarms-mandatory/692297.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-child-car-seat-alarms-mandatory/692297.md?page=4)