# Why aren't film noir movies more popular? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 15, 2010, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-film-noir-movies-more-popular/564287 "2010-12-15T22:01:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-film-noir-movies-more-popular/564287/1 "2010-12-15T22:01:17Z")
A few months ago I watched [Payback](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0120784/) via Netflix. Based on [Richard Stark’s Parker](http://www.thrillingdetective.com/parker2.html) novels (which are currently being adapted into graphic novel form by Darwyn Cooke, and are fantastic), it’s not so much a detective movie as it is a “bad guy goes and gets revenge on even worse guys”. It wasn’t a great film, and had a lot of flaws. But the major elements of a film noir were there (I’m not an expert or anything, but it’s definitely a different feel and flavor that I associate with noir). With the exception of that as well as movies like Sin City and The Spirit (do not see this movie - going from Payback in 1999 up to The Spirit in 2008, there’s a serious drop in quality), I can’t think of any other recent examples. I fear that if The Maltese Falcon were released today, it would be more The Spirit than Payback, and that’s still a major decline. Am I missing a giant treasure trove of movies out there (from recently), do people just not like these movies anymore, or something else? ---
**Author:** ![wintertime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c68b51/32.png) [@wintertime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wintertime)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-film-noir-movies-more-popular/564287/2 "2010-12-15T22:43:21Z")
Could you clarify first, how you define _film noir_? And do you consider _neo noir_ and _Cyberpunk_ to be sub-genres or are they too different to be pooled together? Your inclusion of _Sin City_ seems to suggest that you might be willing to add the new Batman movies too, maybe even _Watchmen_? ---
**Author:** ![Jaledin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Jaledin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jaledin)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-film-noir-movies-more-popular/564287/3 "2010-12-15T22:48:42Z")
I think they’re incredibly well-liked among film buffs – I went through a period of a few months watching every film noir I could find, which could have been well ahead of a hundred, depending on the definition of films noirs, but even then missed some classics I couldn’t track down locally. If you check the film criticism section at a library – university or public – you’ll probably see more books about “noir” directors (I’m including people like R. Siodmak, Lang, Hawks, Huston, Welles, Wilder, who didn’t _just_ do noirs but did some of the best) and films than anything else. I would guess the neo-noirs get less play because people like me are still rewatching the originals and have less patience for revisionism, because the classics of the 40s and 50s are so cherished, as well as that there are so many sort-of-noirs like “The Small Back Room” that are still out there to be found, as well as noir-related genres like heist movies and so forth, as well as the complete oeuvres of those directors who directed some of the classics. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-film-noir-movies-more-popular/564287/4 "2010-12-15T23:58:37Z")
Other than a few outliers (whose _noir_ elements were overshadowed) , _noir_ was never massively popular. It was just too dark for most people and many of the classics of the genre were cheap second features (which adds to their appeal these days) and B movies. The things that make _noir_ are just too mannered for modern audiences. The heyday of the genre was in the 40s and 50s; most critics point to **Touch of Evil** (1958) as the last of the genre. In any case, the style of _noir_ is probably too mannered for modern audiences to accept, and people don’t go in much for tragedy these days (which the best _noir_ was). (And an unhappy ending is not automatically tragedy, BTW.) ---
**Author:** ![Fried\_Dough\_Ho](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a88e57/32.png) [@Fried\_Dough\_Ho](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fried_Dough_Ho)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-film-noir-movies-more-popular/564287/5 "2010-12-16T00:10:03Z")
There is a HUGE noir festival in San Francisco every year that is very, very well attended. I am a tremendous fan and have amassed over 175 titles of noir in my collection. At last year’s festival (held in the decidedly decadent and stunning Art Deco theater, The Castro), the opening short was [this amazing ditty](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOgBa2Oij1A). ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-film-noir-movies-more-popular/564287/6 "2010-12-16T00:42:53Z")
Check out “Comic Book Villains” if you have a chance. It is not LIT like a noir films, but the underlying dark themes of human nature are definitely there. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-film-noir-movies-more-popular/564287/7 "2010-12-16T00:57:35Z")
> [@wintertime](#): > > Could you clarify first, how you define _film noir_? And do you consider _neo noir_ and _Cyberpunk_ to be sub-genres or are they too different to be pooled together? Your inclusion of _Sin City_ seems to suggest that you might be willing to add the new Batman movies too, maybe even _Watchmen_? I don’t know much at all about those subgenres - got any examples? And I wouldn’t consider any of the Batman movies or Watchmen to be noir at all. It seems like they’d be close - but just not quite crossing into whatever category Sin City and The Spirit are in. I think the presence of a narrator is what they lack. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_Draper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Don\_Draper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_Draper)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-film-noir-movies-more-popular/564287/8 "2010-12-16T03:04:57Z")
Well, one of the key ingredients to a “black film” (or “film noir” in french) is that it be photographed in black & white. One of the key elements to the noir style - as beautifully illustrated in Fried Dough Ho’s link - is the use of shadows and darkness in these movies and of characters moving in & out of them. You just don’t get the same visual effect in a color movie. And as silly as it may seem now, the repressive Hayes code that censored Hollywood material for decades was a crucial element in the success of noirs. Basically, these movies were coded “sex movies” in an age when sex couldn’t be discussed onscreen; people didn’t go to film noirs to see a man choose a life of crime - they went to see a Femme Fatale lure a man into a life of crime, and get him to behave sinfully. Nowadays though, sex is blandly discussed on your average network sitcom. A noir film made now simply couldn’t connect with an audience in the same way that it did in the 40s. The subtext is gone. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-film-noir-movies-more-popular/564287/9 "2010-12-16T03:31:59Z")
I’ve argued here before - we seem to do these noir threads regularly - that noir hasn’t existed for more than 50 years. It was a very specific response to a time and atmosphere post WWII. The Maltese Falcon wasn’t noir and neither was the post-war Big Sleep. Noir is not the same as hardboiled or crime or gritty. It was a particular kind of disillusionment and cynicism. Are there small dark crime films that don’t turn into explosion-fests? Sure, lots of them. I didn’t see Payback, but I can’t imagine anything with Mel Gibson, who can’t do anything small and personal, could possibly qualify next to something like [The Ice Harvest](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0400525/) or [Brick](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0393109/) or [The Grifters](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0099703/), with a [Donald Westlake](http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0922799/) screenplay. (Westlake was Richard Stark. I’d also argue that none of Westlake’s books were ever noir. He started in the 1960s and noir was gone by then.) If you liked Payback, you should check that IMDb page about Westlake. Five other Parker books have been made into movies over the years, starting with one by Jeann-Luc Goddard. And there’s also the classic [Point Black](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0062138/) with Lee Marvin, based on the same novel that spawned Payback. Sin CIty was a parody of noir styles that I didn’t take seriously for a moment. A truly funny parody of that type of private eye movie is [Kiss Kiss Bang Bang](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0373469/), which I’d definitely recommend. ---
**Author:** ![Fried\_Dough\_Ho](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a88e57/32.png) [@Fried\_Dough\_Ho](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fried_Dough_Ho)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-film-noir-movies-more-popular/564287/10 "2010-12-16T03:36:17Z")
First this: > [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > It was a particular kind of disillusionment and cynicism. Then this: > [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > The Maltese Falcon wasn’t noir and neither was the post-war Big Sleep. Based on your definition, I would argue that _Maltese Falcon_ was definitely noir. It has all the elements; cynical protagonist, femme fatale looking to bring down the protagonist, urban setting… _Big Sleep_? Same… ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-film-noir-movies-more-popular/564287/11 "2010-12-16T04:18:15Z")
No, I’d agree that _The Maltese Falcon_ wasn’t noir. Spade was too witty and too much on top of things. If Brigid had betrayed him, it would have been noir, but she didn’t. Same with **The Big Sleep**. In both cases, justice won out. In noir, it rarely does. And though film noir was black and white and used shadows, there are some films that used a noirish cinematography but still don’t qualify. **He Walked By Night** , for instance, is often listed as film noir, but it’s actually a police procedural like **Dragnet** (Jack Webb got the idea for the show from the movie – he was in the cast). While the B&W is necessary for film noir, it no more defines it than 3D defines a genre of film. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-film-noir-movies-more-popular/564287/12 "2010-12-16T04:35:49Z")
The Maltese Falcon is practically a fantasy. The Falcon isn’t real and the story is a child’s tale. The characters are bizarre Eurotrash caricatures. It isn’t about the corruption of official values as expressed by the systematic takeover of a police force or the love of a good woman sold as merchandise. It isn’t even about life and death. It’s just greed that drives everyone. It’s a 19th century romance told in modern dress. As such, it’s an odd and almost unique book in the history of the American crime novel and the very faithful film (presumably we’re talking about Huston’s, the third and only faithful version) replicates the book. The Big Sleep also shares nothing but a crime setting with noir. It’s not even based on Chandler’s later works, which do say that the police as a whole are corrupt thugs. The villain here is a gangster and the class display is skewed toward the glamorous life. A millionaire’s rare book drives the plot. (Noir is almost entirely about ordinary working stiffs.) The movie is composed of three almost separate films, with Bogart playing three almost separate characters, so it’s hard to say anything coherent about it that applies throughout, but it’s not about the system or values or society or the failure of America to live up to the ideals it mouthed during the War, any more than Falcon is. Having a hardboiled private eye as the lead doesn’t make a movie a noir. Most of the classic noir movies don’t use private eyes at all. The problem today is that people do tend to lump them all together. My argument - and it can only be an argument since there can’t be any official or factual definitions - is that they shouldn’t all be lumped together. Noir is very specific and fascinating enough in its own right. Spade and Marlowe get enough attention. Leave them out of this. ---
**Author:** ![Horatio\_Hellpop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Horatio\_Hellpop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatio_Hellpop)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-film-noir-movies-more-popular/564287/13 "2010-12-16T04:57:28Z")
Noir, like jazz, is great _because_ of its lack of popular appeal. It has snob appeal. That’s what its perceived greatness is rooted in. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-film-noir-movies-more-popular/564287/14 "2010-12-16T05:21:20Z")
> [@Krokodil](#): > > Noir, like jazz, is great _because_ of its lack of popular appeal. It has snob appeal. That’s what its perceived greatness is rooted in. My opinion about this post applies equally to what you say about jazz and noir: hogwash. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-film-noir-movies-more-popular/564287/15 "2010-12-16T05:37:56Z")
Hardboiled detective movies are about the steep price you pay for living by a code. Film noir is about the steep price you pay for breaking that code. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-film-noir-movies-more-popular/564287/16 "2010-12-16T05:45:42Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > I’ve argued here before - we seem to do these noir threads regularly - that noir hasn’t existed for more than 50 years. It was a very specific response to a time and atmosphere post WWII. The Maltese Falcon wasn’t noir and neither was the post-war Big Sleep. Noir is not the same as hardboiled or crime or gritty. It was a particular kind of disillusionment and cynicism. > > Are there small dark crime films that don’t turn into explosion-fests? Sure, lots of them. I didn’t see Payback, but I can’t imagine anything with Mel Gibson, who can’t do anything small and personal, could possibly qualify next to something like The Ice Harvest or Brick or The Grifters, with a Donald Westlake screenplay. (Westlake was Richard Stark. I’d also argue that none of Westlake’s books were ever noir. He started in the 1960s and noir was gone by then.) > > If you liked Payback, you should check that IMDb page about Westlake. Five other Parker books have been made into movies over the years, starting with one by Jeann-Luc Goddard. And there’s also the classic Point Black with Lee Marvin, based on the same novel that spawned Payback. > > Sin CIty was a parody of noir styles that I didn’t take seriously for a moment. A truly funny parody of that type of private eye movie is Kiss Kiss Bang Bang, which I’d definitely recommend. What about _The Friends of Eddie Coyle_? Would you consider that a film noir? I’d argue it has the classic noir elements despite being made in 1973 (and being in color). ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-film-noir-movies-more-popular/564287/17 "2010-12-16T06:11:52Z")
FYI, here is [Wiki’s list of noir films](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_film_noir), which does include _Payback_. Though having looked through the list, I’d say that it’s a pretty poor list using an overly broad definition. I tend to think of noir as more about mood and a certain cinematic style. I’m not sure I would go as far as saying that there have been any noir films in 50 years. My nominees for more recent noir films include _Blade Runner_ and _The 13th Floor_, which IMO have both the mood and style. LA Confidential has a noirish mood, but doesn’t really have the look of ‘classic’ noir. There’s a bunch more, particularly sci-fi near future dystopias, that might be called noir. _Children of Men_ comes to mind. I see it didn’t even make Wiki’s list. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-film-noir-movies-more-popular/564287/18 "2010-12-16T06:13:30Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Hardboiled detective movies are about the steep price you pay for living by a code. Film noir is about the steep price you pay for breaking that code. By this definition _Payback_ fits. But it’s the other guys who broke the code, and Mel’s the guy making them pay the price. ---
**Author:** ![Raygun99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Raygun99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raygun99)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-film-noir-movies-more-popular/564287/19 "2010-12-16T06:17:26Z")
The Coens solved the problem of time by setting The Man Who Wasn’t There in the late 40s. It’s a perfect noir. ---
**Author:** ![wintertime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c68b51/32.png) [@wintertime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wintertime)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 10:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-film-noir-movies-more-popular/564287/20 "2010-12-16T10:50:05Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > I’ve argued here before - we seem to do these noir threads regularly - that noir hasn’t existed for more than 50 years. It was a very specific response to a time and atmosphere post WWII. The Maltese Falcon wasn’t noir and neither was the post-war Big Sleep. Noir is not the same as hardboiled or crime or gritty. It was a particular kind of disillusionment and cynicism. > > Sin CIty was a parody of noir styles that I didn’t take seriously for a moment. A truly funny parody of that type of private eye movie is [Kiss Kiss Bang Bang](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0373469/), which I’d definitely recommend. Interesting. Your timeframe also excludes a reconstruction like Polanski’s _Chinatown_ and Ertraud’s _Pitie pour les Rats_, Lucidi’s _La Vittima Designata_ and Melville’s _Le Samourai_ – or are European films in general not germane? Of course, all these European films are usually pooled together under the label neo noir (unlike the classical _L’ascenseur pour l’échafaud_ by Malle which is as film noir as possible, imo - or do you disagree?) or postmodern noir (which was mostly defined by Besson’s _Subway_) – but Nolan’s _Memento_ and Fincher’s _Seven_ have also been added by some critics to the neo genre and I have seen them appear side by side with the previously mentioned movies in retrospectives (which - by itself - doesn’t mean anything, of course). Btw, I agree with your recommendation of _Kiss Kiss Bang Bang_ and I’d consider _Brick_ a noir-parody too (and not just because of its settings), though definitely not a funny one. > [@RealityChuck](#): > > And though film noir was black and white and used shadows, there are some films that used a noirish cinematography but still don’t qualify. **He Walked By Night** , for instance, is often listed as film noir, but it’s actually a police procedural like **Dragnet** (Jack Webb got the idea for the show from the movie – he was in the cast). While the B&W is necessary for film noir, it no more defines it than 3D defines a genre of film. The pictorial language of film noir is focused on the translation of troubling emotions and states of mind in visual symbols, and the stylistic devices of expressionism look like they had been invented particularly for this genre: the overwhelming, always creeping presence of the darkness, the shadows and silhouettes in confined spaces that predict and signify the unsettling events, spotlights to isolate a thing or a being from its surroundings and to haul them out of them into our focus without given them context, the point-of-view shot, etc. It’s not surprising that colour is not on par with B&W to achieve the same impression of focus and fragmentation. > [@Munch](#): > > I don’t know much at all about those subgenres - got any examples? > > And I wouldn’t consider any of the Batman movies or Watchmen to be noir at all. It seems like they’d be close - but just not quite crossing into whatever category Sin City and The Spirit are in. I think the presence of a narrator is what they lack. I hope, I’ve added the examples in the preceding paragraphs to illustrate the differences. Film noir is a very specific genre but it’s not isolated in film history; its precursors can be found in the expressionists movies of the 20s and 30s: Lang’s [_Spione_](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0019415/) (Spies) and his well-known [_M_](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0022100/) have a similar pictorial language and an almost identical idea about the use of urban space. Max Ophüls’ early expressionist movies will also look to you quite similar to film noir - though they are quite different in their .. conclusions. You might also be interested in Wiene’s _Das Kabinett des Dr. Caligari_ (from 1920) that uses shadows and silhouettes already in the same meta-context as the later noirs. Oh yes, and do yourself a favour and watch Renoir’s _La Chienne_ (1931) - and you will see, how much inspiration Hollywoods film noir found within the _Poetic Realism_. And if you liked it, don’t miss Lang’s _Scarlett Street_. And if you want to see for yourself whether film noir is exclusively an American phenomenon, watch the already mentioned _L’ascenseur pour l’échafaud_ (_Elevator to the Gallows_) by Malle (the film’s music, btw, was played by Miles Davis and other icons of Jazz). Among the neo and postmodern noirs are many movies that purists wouldn’t put under one roof with the classics - and I quite often agree with them. But you should at least take a look at Altman’s _The Long Goodbye_ (which is, imo, not a noir) and Beineix’ _La lune dans le caniveau_ (The Moon in the Gutter). And though they are definitely not film noir, you might like Beineix’ _Diva_ (which plays with elements of noir in a very postmodern way) and _Betty Blue_, a film that is related to the noir genre on an emotional level (though a totally different kind of movie in every other aspect). His _IP5: L’île aux pachydermes_ returns to a more neo noir feeling but it’s not a good movie, so I wouldn’t recommend it. Some critics add _Before the Devil knows You’re Dead_ to the neo noir genre, a debatable point of view, but the already mentioned _The Man Who Wasn’t There_ definitely is not just a neo noir but also a consistent further development of the genre. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-film-noir-movies-more-popular/564287.md?page=2)