# Why aren't Military Ranks all the same? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 26, 2010, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-military-ranks-all-the-same/551549 "2010-08-26T16:28:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2010, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-military-ranks-all-the-same/551549/21 "2010-08-26T19:33:20Z")
In some cases the confusion is because the ranks mean the same thing, but the same thing can mean different things. For instance, a captain is an officer high enough to be entrusted with an independent command. In the navy, the obvious choice of an independent command is a ship, so a navy captain is typically in charge of a ship (with a whole lot of people and firepower on board), so a navy captain is a pretty high rank. In the army, though, an independent command might be a handful of tanks, with much fewer men, firepower, etc., so an army captain isn’t nearly as high-ranking as a navy captain. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2010, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-military-ranks-all-the-same/551549/22 "2010-08-26T20:09:23Z")
> [@friedo](#): > > > [@PoorYorick](#): > > > > According to my step son (Coast Guard E6) , there was a lot of confusion at his A school where he was getting his electronics training. The people there comprised a mixture of ranks and branches, and apparently the Coast Guard enlisted uniform looks a lot like an officer’s uniform in other branches. My stepson said that there were several instances of enlisted men, particularly Air Force, not being sure whether they should salute him or not. They’d be approaching him down a hallway, for example, and he said you could see their eyes searching his lapel and shoulder looking for a clue. Usually discretion won out and he received a salute. Better safe than sorry. > > Tales are legion of awestruck sailors walking around Manhattan during fleet week, saluting the doormen. When I was an E-3 on a Marine base in Vietnam, I wore an electrician’s striker emblem on my soft cover. The emblem was a telephone pole with a lightning bolt through it. When the light was dim, Marines would always salute me and say “Good morning, Chaplain!” Marines are such lovable idiots. . . ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2010, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-military-ranks-all-the-same/551549/23 "2010-08-26T20:14:09Z")
> [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](#): > > > [@Bearflag70](#): > > > > Pyle refused to allow the lieutenant on base due to lack of proper ID. Even though Pyle knew the lieutenant personally, he refused to disobey Carter’s orders. Hilarity ensued. > > > > I think Carter came around and saw what was happening. Carter apologized to the lieutenant and let him pass. > > > > Couldn’t the lieutenant just supersede Carter’s order and make Pyle let him in? > > I haven’t seen this episode (or any), but as a non-military observer, I’m having trouble finding fault in Pvt. Pyle’s reasoning. He has orders not to let anyone in without proper identification. Even if he knows the lieutenant, how does he know it’s really him and not some enemy spy who looks absolutely the same? If it were me I’d apologize to the lieutenant, but say that no, _nobody_ is to enter without proper documentation. > > And even if he had authority to supersede the order, I assume he couldn’t do it without proving this authority, i.e. show his identification. In which case we’re back to square one. > > Is my reasoning sound, or would I be a moronic soldier? 😉 Actually, the looie should be happy that there’s at least one soldier who takes his orders seriously. Guarding a post is boring, and mostly doesn’t call for a brilliant intellect. It DOES call for someone who will perform his duties according to orders. For all Pyle knew, that lieutenant just got done being courtmartialed and stripped of his rank and position and got kicked out. I haven’t seen the episode in question. ---
**Author:** ![Bearflag70](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Bearflag70](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bearflag70)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2010, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-military-ranks-all-the-same/551549/24 "2010-08-26T20:20:40Z")
I saw the episode when I was a kid. I don’t remember it that well. here’s the summary: 131–Gomer the Perfect MP Gomer is assigned to guard duty at a back gate of the base and refuses to let Carter pass through So, it’s not quite what I remembered. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2010, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-military-ranks-all-the-same/551549/25 "2010-08-26T20:34:37Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > The Air Force has things like Master Super Chief Sargeant or some such lame-osity… And I can tell you that if an untutored civilian government lawyer calls the office of Chief Master Sergeant Smith and asks to speak to Sergeant Smith, the airman who’s answered the phone will politely respond, “I’m sorry, are you calling for the Chief?” Someday I’d like to see one of these guys move laterally into German academia, so he could be Herr Chief Master Sergeant Doktor Professor Smith. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2010, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-military-ranks-all-the-same/551549/26 "2010-08-26T20:37:39Z")
Army/ Air Force Captains always get salutes by mistake. A Navy Captain is a big deal. Better to salute when in doubt. You don’t want to screw up. A Navy Captain is equivalent to a Army or Air Force Colonel. Both are O-6’s. > [@Chronos](#): > > In some cases the confusion is because the ranks mean the same thing, but the same thing can mean different things. For instance, a captain is an officer high enough to be entrusted with an independent command. In the navy, the obvious choice of an independent command is a ship, so a navy captain is typically in charge of a ship (with a whole lot of people and firepower on board), so a navy captain is a pretty high rank. In the army, though, an independent command might be a handful of tanks, with much fewer men, firepower, etc., so an army captain isn’t nearly as high-ranking as a navy captain. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2010, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-military-ranks-all-the-same/551549/27 "2010-08-26T20:58:59Z")
> [@](#): > > The armies of the world have derived their ranks from the Roman Army, while naval ranks come from the English (I think). I believe modern Army ranks are derived more from Renaissance era armies. You don’t see a lot of centurions, legates, and tribunes in modern armies. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2010, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-military-ranks-all-the-same/551549/28 "2010-08-26T21:41:29Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > The armies of the world have derived their ranks from the Roman Army, while naval ranks come from the English (I think). > > I believe modern Army ranks are derived more from Renaissance era armies. You don’t see a lot of centurions, legates, and tribunes in modern armies. You do see legates, but generally they come accompanied with guls and glinns, and are usually dead before the end of the episode. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2010, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-military-ranks-all-the-same/551549/29 "2010-08-26T22:43:20Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > Army/ Air Force Captains always get salutes by mistake. A Navy Captain is a big deal. I don’t understand this statement. How do officers get salutes by mistake? ---
**Author:** ![Chessic\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7c8e57/32.png) [@Chessic\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chessic_Sense)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2010, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-military-ranks-all-the-same/551549/30 "2010-08-26T22:46:26Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > The armies of the world have derived their ranks from the Roman Army, while naval ranks come from the English (I think). > > I believe modern Army ranks are derived more from Renaissance era armies. You don’t see a lot of centurions, legates, and tribunes in modern armies. You’re right. I was thinking of the latin-derived names and got confused. I DO know, however, that the formations and structure of the modern militaries are generally (heh) derived from the Roman Army, post-Marius. I read that. In a book. So you know it’s true. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2010, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-military-ranks-all-the-same/551549/31 "2010-08-26T23:19:35Z")
Back in the '60s when Canada merged the Canadian Army, Royal Canadian Navy, and the Royal Canadian Airforce into a single “Canadian Forces” they made everyone use the same ranks & uniforms; both derived from the Army. The former naval officers were _not_ happy using army ranks and naval ranks were quickly restored for the “Maritime Command”. No such luck for the “Air Command”; they’re still stuck with army ranks. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2010, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-military-ranks-all-the-same/551549/32 "2010-08-26T23:38:06Z")
A navy Lieutenant doesn’t need to salute a Army or Air Force Captain. They are the same level, O-3. But, Lieutenant’s are conditioned to salute. 😉 So sometimes the Army guys get one. It’s a bigger problem with phone calls. A call from a Lieutenant might not get answered ASAP. Then they realize it’s a Navy Lieutenant. That call requires attention much quicker. > [@Chefguy](#): > > > [@aceplace57](#): > > > > Army/ Air Force Captains always get salutes by mistake. A Navy Captain is a big deal. > > I don’t understand this statement. How do officers get salutes by mistake? ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2010, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-military-ranks-all-the-same/551549/33 "2010-08-26T23:57:10Z")
I always kept it straight by remembering the Navy has an extra name. they start with Ensign, LTJG, LT, Lieutenant commander the other branches start with 2Lt, 1LT, CPT, Major that throws everything off by 1. A Navy Lieutenant junior grade is the same as a First Lieutenant in the other branches. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2010, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-military-ranks-all-the-same/551549/34 "2010-08-26T23:57:53Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > A navy Lieutenant doesn’t need to salute a Army or Air Force Captain. They are the same level, O-3. But, Lieutenant’s are conditioned to salute. 😉 So sometimes the Army guys get one. > > It’s a bigger problem with phone calls. A call from a Lieutenant might not get answered ASAP. Then they realize it’s a Navy Lieutenant. That call requires attention much quicker. > > > [@Chefguy](#): > > > > I don’t understand this statement. How do officers get salutes by mistake? The collar insignia are identical, so I really doubt that this happens. I know of incidents where an Air Force captain has identified himself as such on a phone on a Navy base and received VIP treatment, however. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2010, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-military-ranks-all-the-same/551549/35 "2010-08-27T00:41:35Z")
In some countries, not only are the names of the military ranks the same across services, but so are the insignia. [Here](http://www.uniforminsignia.net) is a great site for uniform insignia, rank/rate names in the local language, and translation of same into English. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2010, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-military-ranks-all-the-same/551549/36 "2010-08-27T00:55:14Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > In some countries, not only are the names of the military ranks the same across services, but so are the insignia. [Here](http://www.uniforminsignia.net) is a great site for uniform insignia, rank/rate names in the local language, and translation of same into English. Insignia for officer ranks are identical across all the US services, but enlisted ranks insignia aren’t. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2010, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-military-ranks-all-the-same/551549/37 "2010-08-27T01:50:02Z")
> [@friedo](#): > > > [@Monty](#): > > > > In some countries, not only are the names of the military ranks the same across services, but so are the insignia. [Here](http://www.uniforminsignia.net) is a great site for uniform insignia, rank/rate names in the local language, and translation of same into English. > > Insignia for officer ranks are identical across all the US services, but enlisted ranks insignia aren’t. Some but not all for the officers – the pin-on version of the commissioned officers’ insignia is uniform across services, but the Navy/Coast Guard (and USPHS and NOAA) dress uniforms however use the distinctive maritime style of braid insignia (that is used with minor variation by a very large portion of the world’s navies). So a US Coast Guard Commander wears a silver oak leaf on his utility shirt or cap, just like a US Marine Lieut. Colonel (equivalent pay grade), but in dress uniform or Class B’s he’ll be wearing three equal-thickness braids. One example of what Monty describes is China, or the Israeli Defense Force. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2010, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-military-ranks-all-the-same/551549/38 "2010-08-27T02:03:03Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > In the navy, the obvious choice of an independent command is a ship, so a navy captain is typically in charge of a ship (with a whole lot of people and firepower on board), so a navy captain is a pretty high rank. Note that naval vessels come in many sizes, and the guy appointed commanding officer is known as the captain regardless of his rank. Only large ships would have someone of the rank of Captain in this position. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2010, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-military-ranks-all-the-same/551549/39 "2010-08-27T02:34:46Z")
And, if I understand correctly, a ship can even have multiple folks on board with the rank of “captain”. For instance, if it’s a flagship, then the admiral might have captains on his staff. Correct? ---
**Author:** ![Bartman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/779978/32.png) [@Bartman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bartman)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2010, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-military-ranks-all-the-same/551549/40 "2010-08-27T02:56:08Z")
I think it is worth pointing out that an Army Captain and a Navy Captain were at one point comparable positions. Around 1500 AD either would be in charge of a more or less discrete independent command in the neighborhood of 50-100 men. There was of course a great deal of variation between countries, but it was generally true. As ships grew larger and more powerful the crew sizes grew to man them. By the 20th century most tier 1 warships (battleships and latter carriers) usually had crews in excess of 2000 men. And the rank of Naval captain grew to encompass this. New officer positions were created below the rank of Captain, specifically Commander and Ensign, to fill in the gaps. In the army as units grew they usually got new names and new officer titles. So Army Captains stayed mostly in charge of companies, and the companies stayed roughly the same size. Instead new ranks were created above the captain. Where as in the 1500s you had a general with his captains who reported directly to him. A century or two later the captains’ companies would be organized into regiments with senior captains known as colonels in charge of their fellow captains. And after that the General ranks were split up and codified eventually into the modern parlance of Brigadier General, Major General, Lieutenant General, General, General of the Army/Field Marshal. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-military-ranks-all-the-same/551549.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-military-ranks-all-the-same/551549.md?page=3)