# Why aren't Military Ranks all the same? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 26, 2010, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-military-ranks-all-the-same/551549 "2010-08-26T16:28:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Poysyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Poysyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Poysyn)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2010, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-military-ranks-all-the-same/551549/61 "2010-08-27T14:33:07Z")
To make things slightly more confusing - although rank is clear, one also considers appointment. For example, a Sgt or Master Corporal may be an instructor on an Officer’s course. Technically his students out-rank him, but he is an instructor and therefore by appointment is in a position of authority. I ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2010, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-military-ranks-all-the-same/551549/62 "2010-08-27T14:39:53Z")
> [@PoorYorick](#): > > According to my step son (Coast Guard E6) , there was a lot of confusion at his A school where he was getting his electronics training. The people there comprised a mixture of ranks and branches, and apparently the Coast Guard enlisted uniform looks a lot like an officer’s uniform in other branches. My stepson said that there were several instances of enlisted men, particularly Air Force, not being sure whether they should salute him or not. They’d be approaching him down a hallway, for example, and he said you could see their eyes searching his lapel and shoulder looking for a clue. Usually discretion won out and he received a salute. Better safe than sorry. Since when do you salute indoors (in a non-ceremonial situation)? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2010, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-military-ranks-all-the-same/551549/63 "2010-08-27T14:40:36Z")
Not a military situation but I worked for the NYS Department of Corrections where the “starting” rank was Correction Officer. Then you had Sergeants, Lieutenants, and Captains above them (there was also one Colonel). So Sergeants outranked Officers. I think this is not uncommon in law enforcement agencies. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2010, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-military-ranks-all-the-same/551549/64 "2010-08-27T15:00:03Z")
> [@](#): > > Is the rank of “commodore” ever officially used any more? Not as a rank, but as an informal title. When I was on a submarine, the submarine squadron (a handful of submarines) Commanding Officer was referred to as “the Commodore”. He was an O-6, a Navy Captain. ---
**Author:** ![PoorYorick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ecccb3/32.png) [@PoorYorick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PoorYorick)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2010, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-military-ranks-all-the-same/551549/65 "2010-08-27T15:04:37Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > Since when do you salute indoors (in a non-ceremonial situation)? Heck, I don’t know, I’m sure I screwed it up. Substitute “down a hallway” to “through a forest.” What’s that old story about Dwight Eisenhower and his son during WWII? His son had just graduated West Point as a 2nd Lieutenant and was assigned to his father in London as an aide or some-such. His son asked him about saluting protocol, and he said something like, “All you have to remember is that _everyone_ salutes me, and you salute _everyone_.” ---
**Author:** ![GHO57](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/df788c/32.png) [@GHO57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GHO57)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2010, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-military-ranks-all-the-same/551549/66 "2010-08-27T15:20:14Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > Since when do you salute indoors (in a non-ceremonial situation)? When reporting. ---
**Author:** ![davekhps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@davekhps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davekhps)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2010, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-military-ranks-all-the-same/551549/67 "2010-08-27T16:09:06Z")
One thing to add for the United States: technically, _civilians_ have military grade equivalents as well. The General Schedule lines up nicely with military grades, particularly for officers. Thus, a GS-15 is equivalent to an O-6 Colonel/Captain, a GS-14 to an O-5 LTC, etc. on down. The Senior Executive Service civilian ranks are equivalent to flag officers. In principle, this jibes with civilian control of the military. In practice, it can mean all sorts of things-- most often, any civilian considering themselves wise is smart enough not to invoke these grade equivalents at all. Lord knows, I may have technically “outranked” military folks working with me, but unless I was clearly their manager, I never presumed to order them around-- that’s for the military to worry about. Heck, once you get up to the senior GS ranks, unless you’re dealing with very junior officers, you can’t go wrong with “sir” and “m’am”, even if you outrank them-- simple respect for the uniform and all, and understanding that it’s a LOT harder to make Colonel than it is GS-15 for all the obvious reasons. ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2010, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-military-ranks-all-the-same/551549/68 "2010-08-27T18:33:42Z")
> [@GHO57](#): > > > [@Musicat](#): > > > > Since when do you salute indoors (in a non-ceremonial situation)? > > When reporting. Not in the U.S. Navy. Not sure about the Coast Guard. ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2010, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-military-ranks-all-the-same/551549/69 "2010-08-27T18:41:58Z")
> [@davekhps](#): > > One thing to add for the United States: technically, _civilians_ have military grade equivalents as well. > > The General Schedule lines up nicely with military grades, particularly for officers. Thus, a GS-15 is equivalent to an O-6 Colonel/Captain, a GS-14 to an O-5 LTC, etc. on down. The Senior Executive Service civilian ranks are equivalent to flag officers. > > In principle, this jibes with civilian control of the military. In practice, it can mean all sorts of things-- most often, any civilian considering themselves wise is smart enough not to invoke these grade equivalents at all. Lord knows, I may have technically “outranked” military folks working with me, but unless I was clearly their manager, I never presumed to order them around-- that’s for the military to worry about. Heck, once you get up to the senior GS ranks, unless you’re dealing with very junior officers, you can’t go wrong with “sir” and “m’am”, even if you outrank them-- simple respect for the uniform and all, and understanding that it’s a LOT harder to make Colonel than it is GS-15 for all the obvious reasons. Back when I was in the military, my last assignment was at a military school in which my boss (and her boss) were both civilians. (My boss’s boss reported to the CO of the school, who was a senior military officer.) For anything related to doing my job, I went to my civilian boss. For any purely military matter, there was a dual chain-of-command–I reported to the Senior Military Instructor, who reported to the XO, who reported to the CO. While this might sound cumbersome and confusing, the system actually worked quite well. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2010, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-military-ranks-all-the-same/551549/70 "2010-08-27T20:31:32Z")
> [@robby](#): > > > [@davekhps](#): > > > > One thing to add for the United States: technically, _civilians_ have military grade equivalents as well. > > > > The General Schedule lines up nicely with military grades, particularly for officers. Thus, a GS-15 is equivalent to an O-6 Colonel/Captain, a GS-14 to an O-5 LTC, etc. on down. The Senior Executive Service civilian ranks are equivalent to flag officers. > > > > In principle, this jibes with civilian control of the military. In practice, it can mean all sorts of things-- most often, any civilian considering themselves wise is smart enough not to invoke these grade equivalents at all. Lord knows, I may have technically “outranked” military folks working with me, but unless I was clearly their manager, I never presumed to order them around-- that’s for the military to worry about. Heck, once you get up to the senior GS ranks, unless you’re dealing with very junior officers, you can’t go wrong with “sir” and “m’am”, even if you outrank them-- simple respect for the uniform and all, and understanding that it’s a LOT harder to make Colonel than it is GS-15 for all the obvious reasons. > > Back when I was in the military, my last assignment was at a military school in which my boss (and her boss) were both civilians. (My boss’s boss reported to the CO of the school, who was a senior military officer.) For anything related to doing my job, I went to my civilian boss. For any purely military matter, there was a dual chain-of-command–I reported to the Senior Military Instructor, who reported to the XO, who reported to the CO. > > While this might sound cumbersome and confusing, the system actually worked quite well. I had the same situation during my last tour, when I was attached to the Department of State. I worked for a civilian Foreign Service Officer at post, but reported to my military chain back in WDC. Never had a conflict in four years. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2010, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-military-ranks-all-the-same/551549/71 "2010-08-27T21:29:15Z")
Back to the OP – Is there any reason why they _should_ all be the same? If you are in the military it’s not difficult to learn the system you’re working in and to learn enough of the adjacent systems in order to get by when you need to. I despise standardization for its own sake. ---
**Author:** ![Kilmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/a6a055/32.png) [@Kilmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kilmore)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2010, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-military-ranks-all-the-same/551549/72 "2010-08-27T22:01:55Z")
> [@History\_Geek](#): > > Is the rank of “commodore” ever officially used any more? In the US Navy, a “Commodore” is an officer of Captain rank who leads a squadron of ships or planes. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2010, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-military-ranks-all-the-same/551549/73 "2010-08-27T22:10:45Z")
> [@Kilmore](#): > > > [@History\_Geek](#): > > > > Is the rank of “commodore” ever officially used any more? > > In the US Navy, a “Commodore” is an officer of Captain rank who leads a squadron of ships or planes. Usually in wartime. Also, I knew a man in the Navy by the name of Commodore Forte. He was the head of the Civil Engineering Corps (CEC) branch at the time, so never had a squadron of anything. However, he was the leader of 8-10 Seabee battalions. ---
**Author:** ![AirFarce1](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airfarce1/32/298_2.png) [@AirFarce1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AirFarce1)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2010, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-military-ranks-all-the-same/551549/74 "2010-08-28T00:04:52Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > > [@Bearflag70](#): > > > > So salutes are required across branches and people are expected to be able to readily identify ranks and pay grades across branches? > > Officer ranks are easily discerned, as the collar devices are distinct from enlisted ranks. If it glitters, salute it. An Army colonel’s collar device is identical to a Navy captain’s device, for example (they are both O-6 grade). Knowing what to call someone is not critical, but it’s a good idea, particularly if you address an Army colonel as “captain”, which is a much lower rank in the Army. The enlisted ranks are much tougher to remember. The Air Force has things like Master Super Chief Sargeant or some such lame-osity, whereas the Marines have Sargeant Major and the Navy a Master Chief. In 23 years, I was never able to remember all of the enlisted ranks, mainly because it just didn’t matter. Officer ranks were another kettle of fish. > > Oh, and yes, salutes are mandatory across services. Chefguy, There is no "super-master-cheif sergeant, dammit. Super Duper Cheif Master better than other branches E-9 Sergeants abound, though. 1% (unless deploying on a joint environment, then EVERYONE wears that rank). Really though, it goes Master, Senior Master, then Cheif Master Sergeant for E-7,8, and 9. ---
**Author:** ![paperbackwriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/53a042/32.png) [@paperbackwriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/paperbackwriter)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2010, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-military-ranks-all-the-same/551549/75 "2010-08-28T00:07:15Z")
The other contemporary usage of “commodore” is as a courtesy rank for an officer holding the actual rank of Captain when he or she is on a vessel they don’t command. An example might be a Captain on the staff of a Rear Admiral while on a ship in the Admirals task force. Part of the only-one-captain thing. ---
**Author:** ![AirFarce1](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airfarce1/32/298_2.png) [@AirFarce1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AirFarce1)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2010, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-military-ranks-all-the-same/551549/76 "2010-08-28T00:08:24Z")
> [@PoorYorick](#): > > > [@Bearflag70](#): > > > > So salutes are required across branches and people are expected to be able to readily identify ranks and pay grades across branches? > > According to my step son (Coast Guard E6) , there was a lot of confusion at his A school where he was getting his electronics training. The people there comprised a mixture of ranks and branches, and apparently the Coast Guard enlisted uniform looks a lot like an officer’s uniform in other branches. My stepson said that there were several instances of enlisted men, particularly Air Force, not being sure whether they should salute him or not. They’d be approaching him down a hallway, for example, and he said you could see their eyes searching his lapel and shoulder looking for a clue. Usually discretion won out and he received a salute. Better safe than sorry. In the military, there is a saying when going into “joint operations.” “When in doubt, whip it out.” That’s why they saluted him alot. ---
**Author:** ![AirFarce1](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airfarce1/32/298_2.png) [@AirFarce1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AirFarce1)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2010, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-military-ranks-all-the-same/551549/77 "2010-08-28T00:13:17Z")
> [@dtilque](#): > > The main problem with the Air Force’s enlisted ranks is that they change them around from time to time. Or they change the insignia. > > When I was a kid (Air Force brat), I learned all the AF ranks. The E-2, E-3 and E-4 grades were called Airman Third, Second, and First Class respectively. The fact that they counted down as you went up caused some confusion, so maybe that’s why they changed them. After going to college, I joined the Air Guard and find that these grades are now Airman, Airman First Class and Senior Airman/Sergeant. The insignia changed a bit. The star in the center of the insignia is now blue (except for Sergeant) instead of white. > > After a number of years in the Guard, I leave. Several years later I go back to visit my old unit and find that they’ve changed the Master Sergeant insignia. Now it has a tent (chevron) on top instead of a third stripe below the star. This was back in the 90s, so they may have changed things again since then. Hope not – they need to settle on one set and stick with them. Not to disappoint, they changed it since then. Now, Buck Sgt has gone away; AB, A1C, SrA. When someone makes E-5, they are a Staff Sergeant, stars are all colored now (white or blue, depending on uniform). We change uniforms and ranks WAAAYYY too often. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2010, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-military-ranks-all-the-same/551549/78 "2010-08-28T02:16:21Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > > [@Kilmore](#): > > > > In the US Navy, a “Commodore” is an officer of Captain rank who leads a squadron of ships or planes. > > Usually in wartime. Also, I knew a man in the Navy by the name of Commodore Forte. He was the head of the Civil Engineering Corps (CEC) branch at the time, so never had a squadron of anything. However, he was the leader of 8-10 Seabee battalions. Same idea: he commanded a group of multiple units. Perhaps a majority of Western navies (save notably for Britain & the Commonwealth nations) by the early 20th Century adopted a scale where ranks skip directly from Captain to Rear Admiral, with Commodore being the job described above. The US adopted such a system in 1899. Under that scheme in USN you went from Captain to 2-star Rear Admiral, but those RADMs who were below the median seniority of the group - literally, the lower half or the RADMs - were paid at the rate for 1-star brigadier generals of the land services. All still wore the 2 stars, or a wide band of braid + 1 regular braid on the cuffs. The US briefly revived Commodore as a distinct operational rank during WW2, giving it the 1-star (or a single wide band of braid on the cuff) insignia, then upon shrinking post-war reverted to the system of lower and upper half of Rear Admirals (no idea if the differentiation by seniority remained or if at some point between 1948 and 1981 the move from lower to upper half became an actual promotion, anyone know?) During the first Reagan administration they again revived it as “Commodore Admiral” a proper permanent O7 rank, wearing the WW2 Commodore insignia and from which it took an actual promotion to make RADM. Apparently this was less than buoyantly received, and by early in Ron’s second term the decision was made to instead bring back the _term_ “Rear Admiral(LH)” for that rank and grade, wearing the O7 insignia, and from which an actual promotion is required to move on to (UH). ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2010, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-military-ranks-all-the-same/551549/79 "2010-08-28T03:12:10Z")
> [@AirFarce1](#): > > > [@Chefguy](#): > > > > Officer ranks are easily discerned, as the collar devices are distinct from enlisted ranks. If it glitters, salute it. An Army colonel’s collar device is identical to a Navy captain’s device, for example (they are both O-6 grade). Knowing what to call someone is not critical, but it’s a good idea, particularly if you address an Army colonel as “captain”, which is a much lower rank in the Army. The enlisted ranks are much tougher to remember. The Air Force has things like Master Super Chief Sargeant or some such lame-osity, whereas the Marines have Sargeant Major and the Navy a Master Chief. In 23 years, I was never able to remember all of the enlisted ranks, mainly because it just didn’t matter. Officer ranks were another kettle of fish. > > > > Oh, and yes, salutes are mandatory across services. > > Chefguy, > There is no "super-master-cheif sergeant, dammit. Super Duper Cheif Master better than other branches E-9 Sergeants abound, though. 1% (unless deploying on a joint environment, then EVERYONE wears that rank). > > Really though, it goes Master, Senior Master, then Cheif Master Sergeant for E-7,8, and 9. I would not normally nitpick your fun, but as a former Chief Petty Officer, the word “cheif” is hurting my brain. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2010, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-military-ranks-all-the-same/551549/80 "2010-08-28T03:19:32Z")
> [@Bearflag70](#): > > Can a person in one branch of the military “outrank” someone in another branch and order them around? > > ETA: Does Col. Sanders outrank Sgt. Slaughter? > [@History\_Geek](#): > > Is the rank of “commodore” ever officially used any more? In the (UK) Royal Navy and RAF, commodore denoted an _officer commanding_ - ie., a temporary “status boost”, rather than a promotion, given to captains so they could command squadrons. I think the RN has permanent commodores now. I don’t know what they do. Colonel Sanders is a [Kentucky Colonel](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kentucky_Colonel), which is a civilian appointment. Robert “Sergeant Slaughter” Remus was a Marine Gunnery Sergeant before becoming a pro wrestler, so while he doesn’t have to salute Colonel Sanders, he _does_ have to salute General Norman Schwarzkopf, who is _also_ a Kentucky Colonel. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-military-ranks-all-the-same/551549.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-military-ranks-all-the-same/551549.md?page=5)