# Why aren't Military Ranks all the same? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 26, 2010, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-military-ranks-all-the-same/551549 "2010-08-26T16:28:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2010, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-military-ranks-all-the-same/551549/121 "2010-08-30T13:09:18Z")
> [@Snnipe\_70E](#): > > That is the major difference between Navy and Merchant marine. If a captian had to qualify as a Chief Engineer first the quality would go down. When I did reserve duty the Chief Engineer on the destroyer hardly knew anything about a steam plant. Infact it was the first steam ship he had worked on. The captian a Lt Commander or Commander I think knew what an engine room was but very little about what went on there. This was the non nuke Navy. > > In the marchine marine normally it takes at least 3 years to get a 3rds ticket. Then you lhave to be under articles for at least 365 days before you can take the test for a 2nds ticket. The same to get to 1st assistant engineer. And again the same before taking the Chief’s test. The 365 days under articles normally takes over a year to get depending on the job market. The to become a Captian would take the same to get through the 3, 2, chief mates tests before taking the Captians test. :smack::smack::smack::smack: > [@Chefguy](#): > > **CAPTAIN, NOT “CAPTIAN”!** ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2010, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-military-ranks-all-the-same/551549/122 "2010-08-30T13:26:08Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > (“Aluf”, incidentally, means “Champion”; Israel’s sole Lt. General is called “Rav-Aluf”, or “High Champion”, possibly the most awesome rank ever.) The awesomest combination of name and rank, though, is Staff Sergeant Max Fightmaster. He’s a real guy, by the way. As real as guys get, to make other guys fade into vaguely-homosexual ghostly apparitions by comparison. ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2010, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-military-ranks-all-the-same/551549/123 "2010-08-30T13:29:02Z")
> [@Cardinal](#): > > …There was an Army Reserve Captain at my old church, and being only an O-3, he was only about 29. When he went to Port Hueneme for the PX, he was greeted with wide eyes, as he was apparently the youngest O-6 in the last 100 years (“Captain” is three grades and 15 years or more beyond in the US Navy). When I was a kid, I got a dependent’s ID card at the Navy base in Alameda, CA. My stepfather was an Army captain (O-3). On my ID card, instead of listing my stepfather as “Capt. ,” they listed him as “O-3 ,” apparently because they had a really hard time calling him a “captain.” Also, when I was about 10 years old, I remember one of my friends asking me why, if my stepfather was a captain, we were living in a small base apartment where they put the [Navy] lieutenants instead of the big single-family multistory houses where all of the [Navy] captains lived. I told him it was probably because my stepfather was Army, and we were living on a Navy base. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Nader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Darth\_Nader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Nader)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2010, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-military-ranks-all-the-same/551549/124 "2010-08-30T14:05:25Z")
Sometimes, those at the same grade don’t get the same pay. Then you get situations like the post-WW2 mutiny in New Zealand. Really, something like 20% of the entire service stopped following orders during that mess. ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2010, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-military-ranks-all-the-same/551549/125 "2010-08-30T14:07:55Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > The awesomest combination of name and rank, though, is Staff Sergeant Max Fightmaster. My stepfather once worked with an Army major with the last name of “Major.” Yes, he was a real-life “Major Major.” 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2010, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-military-ranks-all-the-same/551549/126 "2010-08-30T14:09:37Z")
If _Star Trek_ is any guide, one can go from third-year cadet to O-6, if one is sufficiently heroic. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2010, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-military-ranks-all-the-same/551549/127 "2010-08-30T14:30:50Z")
> [@Shirley\_Ujest](#): > > …Does the size of the ship out rank another smaller ship regarding a Captain’s Ranking, if that makes sense?.. The various incarnations of _Star Trek_’s Starfleet have made a mess of rank and protocol over the years, as noted above. All Starfleet vessels, regardless of size, appear to be commanded by captains (USN equivalent O-6). I remember a VGR episode where _Voyager_ met up with the smaller, badly-damaged USS _Equinox_. Capt. Janeway of _Voyager_ explained that of the two captains, she, as CO of the ship with “greater tactical capability” (I think that was the phrase), was in charge. Not a word about time in grade. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2010, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-military-ranks-all-the-same/551549/128 "2010-08-30T14:43:39Z")
Regarding the commodore/rear admiral lower half issue in the U.S. Navy and the sergeant issue in the U.S.A.F., I would think there would be a default preference for unique single-word terms as ranks. That’s the way I would have done it, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Raguleader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/258eb7/32.png) [@Raguleader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raguleader)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2010, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-military-ranks-all-the-same/551549/129 "2010-08-30T14:48:07Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > > [@Shirley\_Ujest](#): > > > > …Does the size of the ship out rank another smaller ship regarding a Captain’s Ranking, if that makes sense?.. > > The various incarnations of _Star Trek_’s Starfleet have made a mess of rank and protocol over the years, as noted above. All Starfleet vessels, regardless of size, appear to be commanded by captains (USN equivalent O-6). I remember a VGR episode where _Voyager_ met up with the smaller, badly-damaged USS _Equinox_. Capt. Janeway of _Voyager_ explained that of the two captains, she, as CO of the ship with “greater tactical capability” (I think that was the phrase), was in charge. Not a word about time in grade. As long as we don’t talk about the captain of the USS _Valiant_. In fact, the less said of that whole mess, the better. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2010, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-military-ranks-all-the-same/551549/130 "2010-08-30T15:14:10Z")
> [@robby](#): > > When I was a kid, I got a dependent’s ID card at the Navy base in Alameda, CA. My stepfather was an Army captain (O-3). On my ID card, instead of listing my stepfather as “Capt. ,” they listed him as “O-3 ,” apparently because they had a really hard time calling him a “captain.” Then the clerk who prepared the DD1173 (the “dependent” ID card) did it incorrectly. The block for sponsor’s rank/paygrade should’ve had _CPT/O-3_ and the block for sponsor’s service, of course, should’ve had _Army_. ---
**Author:** ![drewder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/57b2e6/32.png) [@drewder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewder)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2010, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-military-ranks-all-the-same/551549/131 "2010-08-30T15:16:36Z")
Private Pile was not only in his rights to stop the lieutenant but he could have been brought up on charges if he didn’t. It wouldn’t matter if the base commander or a 5 star general showed up if his arrival wasn’t covered by the guards special orders he couldn’t let him in. I refer you to the General orders 1.I will guard everything within the limits of my post and quit my post only when properly relieved. 2.I will obey my special orders and perform all of my duties in a military manner. 3.I will report violations of my special orders, emergencies, and anything not covered in my instructions to the commander of the relief. Now I realize he was in the marines so they are a little more verbose but you get the gist from this. These orders come from the commander-in-chief and no one can superceed them. Not that the officer couldn’t be let in but that the guard couldn’t make the call if the seargent of the guard didn’t give him any special orders about it. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2010, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-military-ranks-all-the-same/551549/132 "2010-08-30T15:43:58Z")
> [@robby](#): > > My stepfather once worked with an Army major with the last name of “Major.” Yes, he was a real-life “Major Major.” I know a Major Payne (USAF). He has valid prospects of becoming a General Payne. ---
**Author:** ![Raguleader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/258eb7/32.png) [@Raguleader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raguleader)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2010, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-military-ranks-all-the-same/551549/133 "2010-08-30T15:46:27Z")
> [@Xema](#): > > > [@robby](#): > > > > My stepfather once worked with an Army major with the last name of “Major.” Yes, he was a real-life “Major Major.” > > I know a Major Payne (USAF). He has valid prospects of becoming a General Payne. Someone on the Dope once told a story of a 1st Lieutenant in their company named “Lieutenant Marvel”. Seems the day he pinned on Captain, one of the secretaries in the battalion had made him a Captain Marvel costume that they got him to wear that day. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2010, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-military-ranks-all-the-same/551549/134 "2010-08-30T16:02:45Z")
I suppose General Mills will have to eat a bowl of cereal. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2010, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-military-ranks-all-the-same/551549/135 "2010-08-30T16:58:48Z")
> [@robby](#): > > > [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > > > The awesomest combination of name and rank, though, is Staff Sergeant Max Fightmaster. > > My stepfather once worked with an Army major with the last name of “Major.” Yes, he was a real-life “Major Major.” 🙂 I worked with a guy named Major. He was Master Chief Major. Phone conversations got awkward. “Your name?” “Major.” “Major what?” “Master Chief Major.” “You mean Sergeant Major?” “No, I’m in the Navy.” ::confused silence:: ---
**Author:** ![Raguleader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/258eb7/32.png) [@Raguleader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raguleader)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2010, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-military-ranks-all-the-same/551549/136 "2010-08-30T17:01:36Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > > [@robby](#): > > > > My stepfather once worked with an Army major with the last name of “Major.” Yes, he was a real-life “Major Major.” 🙂 > > I worked with a guy named Major. He was Master Chief Major. Phone conversations got awkward. > > “Your name?” > “Major.” > “Major what?” > “Master Chief Major.” > “You mean Sergeant Major?” > “No, I’m in the Navy.” > ::confused silence:: You ever hear the story of a guy named General Smith (as in, first name was General?) When he was a Lieutenant, he ended up getting orders from his higher-ups never to introduce himself on the phone using his rank-and-name because of the confusion it caused on the other end. ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2010, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-military-ranks-all-the-same/551549/137 "2010-08-30T17:42:59Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > > [@robby](#): > > > > When I was a kid, I got a dependent’s ID card at the Navy base in Alameda, CA. My stepfather was an Army captain (O-3). On my ID card, instead of listing my stepfather as “Capt. ,” they listed him as “O-3 ,” apparently because they had a really hard time calling him a “captain.” > > Then the clerk who prepared the DD1173 (the “dependent” ID card) did it incorrectly. The block for sponsor’s rank/paygrade should’ve had _CPT/O-3_ and the block for sponsor’s service, of course, should’ve had _Army_. I don’t doubt that the ID card was filled out incorrectly, but maybe the form has changed? (Note that I received this particular card over 30 years ago.) I’m pretty sure there was a single block for the sponsor’s grade and name, because I distinctly remember it as “O-3 [Name]”, which I thought was odd since I didn’t know what an “O-3” was at the time. ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2010, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-military-ranks-all-the-same/551549/138 "2010-08-30T17:57:27Z")
> [@Raguleader](#): > > …You ever hear the story of a guy named General Smith (as in, first name was General?) When he was a Lieutenant, he ended up getting orders from his higher-ups never to introduce himself on the phone using his rank-and-name because of the confusion it caused on the other end. I’m pretty sure I went to Nuclear Power School with a naval officer with the first name of “General.” (I was trying to remember what his name was when I mentioned “Major Major,” and “General” rings a bell.) Anyway, he was in the Navy, and was an Ensign at the time. I’m sure things got more interesting for him once he was promoted to LTJG and LT. Especially with the ALL CAPS style used for orders and message traffic. His name would come across as “LT GENERAL SMITH.” 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2010, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-military-ranks-all-the-same/551549/139 "2010-08-30T20:29:43Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > > [@Shirley\_Ujest](#): > > > > …Does the size of the ship out rank another smaller ship regarding a Captain’s Ranking, if that makes sense?.. > > The various incarnations of _Star Trek_’s Starfleet have made a mess of rank and protocol over the years, as noted above. All Starfleet vessels, regardless of size, appear to be commanded by captains (USN equivalent O-6). I remember a VGR episode where _Voyager_ met up with the smaller, badly-damaged USS _Equinox_. Capt. Janeway of _Voyager_ explained that of the two captains, she, as CO of the ship with “greater tactical capability” (I think that was the phrase), was in charge. Not a word about time in grade. Well, they did get a lot of things wrong on ST, which is why the writers became writers instead of engineers or aviators. In [The Making Of Star Trek](http://www.amazon.com/The-Making-of-Star-Trek/dp/B002RCTSB6/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=miscellaneous&qid=1283199565&sr=8-3), published while the original series was still being produced, it was purported that jobs on board a starship would be so exacting that _everyone_ would be a commissioned officer. The first pilot, “The Cage”, did show a couple of very young space cadets on the bridge who seemed to do nothing but stand at the doorway, but as cadets I suppose they too would be officers, like midshipmen. In later incarnations you do see noncoms here and there, but in TNG the head of the entire engineering department is only a Chief. I know, IRL, USN chiefs do some majorly important technical work, and may be personally responsible for critical components, not to mention directing a lot of sailors under them. But in no way would a MCPO be the head of engineering on a large ship–or would he? In any event, I assume the writers must have thought that “Chief” must be a very high commissioned rank, perhaps up there with Captain and Commodore. Although, from what I’ve read about Navy life, a new Ensign will probably be in more awe of a seasoned Chief, than the other way around. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2010, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-military-ranks-all-the-same/551549/140 "2010-08-30T20:35:57Z")
Wait, what? The head of the transporters is a Chief. The head of engineering is LaForge, who is a Lieutenant Commander. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-military-ranks-all-the-same/551549.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-military-ranks-all-the-same/551549.md?page=8)