# Why aren't more Christians universalists? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 7, 2018, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-more-christians-universalists/813778 "2018-05-07T19:24:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![senoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@senoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/senoy)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2018, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-more-christians-universalists/813778/41 "2018-05-09T20:00:55Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > No, it’s more like Bob rapes Mary, and Mary tortures Bob for the rest of eternity. > edited to add: Please note the word “eternity”. Not at all. Your comment was in response to DrDeth’s post that said specifically his belief that Hell is temporary until they truly repent. If Bob is never sorry that he raped Mary and is completely fine with it, then why is Mary the problem again? If Bob says, “Geeze, raping you was wrong, that wasn’t something I’m proud of.” and Mary is more than willing to be his friend again, I’m still siding with Mary on this one. This is definitely Bob’s issue. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2018, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-more-christians-universalists/813778/42 "2018-05-09T20:07:23Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I am considering the phrase itself, and the fact that it is indeed “deepity” in nature, no distortion necessary…especially if “good” is defined as “acting as I think the god/goddess/godthing I worship would want me to act”. It makes the assumption that all g/g/g entities want the same thing from their worshipers and/or that all g/g/g entities are _really_ the same entity under various guises. Well, one can certainly distort or misinterpret statements taken out of context and on their own. Since Sikhism requires you to be a good person, the statement is essentially saying “We don’t demand you be a Sikh. If you are a Christian, it is enough to be a good person and a good Christian.” Especially when you consider the teachings of Jesus, which are all about being a good person, despite how they may be interpreted today by modern American so-called Christians. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2018, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-more-christians-universalists/813778/43 "2018-05-09T20:08:36Z")
> [@senoy](#): > > Not at all. Your comment was in response to DrDeth’s post that said specifically his belief that Hell is temporary until they truly repent. If Bob is never sorry that he raped Mary and is completely fine with it, then why is Mary the problem again? If Bob says, “Geeze, raping you was wrong, that wasn’t something I’m proud of.” and Mary is more than willing to be his friend again, I’m still siding with Mary on this one. This is definitely Bob’s issue. Have you not encountered this in the world? Where people do you wrong repeatedly, blame it on you and claim that any problems you have with them are all on you? ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2018, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-more-christians-universalists/813778/44 "2018-05-09T20:16:57Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Is there a term for supposedly inspirational phrases that fall apart if you examine them for more than two seconds? But, to be fair, pretty much _every_ inspirational phrase, proverb, rule of thumb, or other piece of advice falls apart if you take it completely literally and start rules-lawyering it and treating it like a mathematical theorem or a legal statute. ---
**Author:** ![senoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@senoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/senoy)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2018, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-more-christians-universalists/813778/45 "2018-05-09T20:17:44Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > Have you not encountered this in the world? Where people do you wrong repeatedly, blame it on you and claim that any problems you have with them are all on you? Heh, I have, but it’s a pretty weak argument to make against DrDeth’s claim. “If Hitler’s down in Hell laughing it up that he killed millions and God’s leaving him there, then God is an A-hole and one assumes non-existent or somesuch…” all I’m saying is that’s a very interesting position to take. When you’re siding with Hitler on pretty much anything, you probably want to take a good hard look in the mirror and start asking yourself how exactly you got to this point. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2018, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-more-christians-universalists/813778/46 "2018-05-09T20:22:07Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Evil people went to Hell until they \*truly \*repented. The thing about some really evil people is that they would _never_ repent. Hitler perhaps being one of them. Thus, them being in Hell forever was _their fault & decision._ I’m sorry, but 1. The decision to create Hell is is the fault of the entity that created Hell. 2. The decision to make it possible to spend an eternity in Hell is the fault of the entity that created Hell and made the rules… 3. The decision to make all those that are “evil”(btw, who falls under that category? What exactly is the range of “evil”?) suffer the same fate is the fault of the entity that created Hell and made the rules. 4. The inability to understand that if a person doesn’t truly repent after enough torture they are obviously severely mentally ill means that the entity that created Hell and set the rules is not worthy of my worship. The way I’ve heard Hell described, if I spent a weekend there _I_ would sincerely apologize for killing six million Jews in WWII. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2018, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-more-christians-universalists/813778/47 "2018-05-09T20:24:09Z")
> [@senoy](#): > > Heh, I have, but it’s a pretty weak argument to make against DrDeth’s claim. “If Hitler’s down in Hell laughing it up that he killed millions and God’s leaving him there, then God is an A-hole and one assumes non-existent or somesuch…” all I’m saying is that’s a very interesting position to take. When you’re siding with Hitler on pretty much anything, you probably want to take a good hard look in the mirror and start asking yourself how exactly you got to this point. Nobody is siding with with Hitler. ---
**Author:** ![senoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@senoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/senoy)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2018, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-more-christians-universalists/813778/48 "2018-05-09T20:28:40Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Nobody is siding with with Hitler. Pretty sure you are here. I read it again. Your claim is that if Hitler is in Hell and not sorry for committing genocide then God is somehow ‘bad.’ This means that in order for God to be ‘good’ in your eyes, Hitler shouldn’t be in Hell at some point even if he’s not sorry or even ecstatic about his genocidal ways. I think that you’re going to need some serious rhetorical gymnastics to say that that’s not siding with Hitler. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2018, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-more-christians-universalists/813778/49 "2018-05-09T20:31:33Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > But, to be fair, pretty much _every_ inspirational phrase, proverb, rule of thumb, or other piece of advice falls apart if you take it completely literally and start rules-lawyering it and treating it like a mathematical theorem or a legal statute. It can be instructive to observe how the statements fall apart, though. For example this “I don’t care what religion you are, just be a good whatever” makes the implicit claim that all religions instruct their constituents to do things that, if obeyed, will result in better things for other people and society. Personally I vehemently disagree - for some people being a “good whatever” means blowing things up or killing people. So to me the phrase doesn’t fail for semantic reasons, it fails because it fails to acknowledge the potential evils of religion. So even though _I understand that the sentiment behind the phrase is good_, I still recognize it as an excellent opportunity to get on my soapbox and say things that make people mad. Which, truly, is a reward in and of itself. On a different subject, this whole business about whether judgement and punishment is just or not? You kind of have to first agree on what punishment you’re talking about. I will _super_ cut off contact with somebody forever, if I don’t like them. I would not necessarily _torture_ them forever, but there are certainly punishments and consequences that I would consider to be a reasonable reaction to various actions. For example a person who misses a question on a single test _will never have a 100% in the class again_. (Dun dun dunnnn!!!) And no, I don’t think that christianity has anything resembling a consensus on what the punishment will be for various crimes/sins. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2018, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-more-christians-universalists/813778/50 "2018-05-09T20:38:49Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > It can be instructive to observe how the statements fall apart, though. For example this “I don’t care what religion you are, just be a good whatever” makes the implicit claim that all religions instruct their constituents to do things that, if obeyed, will result in better things for other people and society. > > Personally I vehemently disagree - for some people being a “good whatever” means blowing things up or killing people. So to me the phrase doesn’t fail for semantic reasons, it fails because it fails to acknowledge the potential evils of religion. Good point. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2018, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-more-christians-universalists/813778/51 "2018-05-09T20:41:20Z")
> [@senoy](#): > > Pretty sure you are here. I read it again. Your claim is that if Hitler is in Hell and not sorry for committing genocide then God is somehow ‘bad.’ This means that in order for God to be ‘good’ in your eyes, Hitler shouldn’t be in Hell at some point even if he’s not sorry or even ecstatic about his genocidal ways. I think that you’re going to need some serious rhetorical gymnastics to say that that’s not siding with Hitler. Next time, try quoting what I say that you object to. You keep leaving out the “Eternal torture” bit-do you have any idea at all what torture can do? Nobody laughs through it, and it doesn’t take an eternity to get _anyone_ to confess, repent, and ask for forgiveness. “Hitler laughing in Hell”, indeed. As evil as Hitler was, he was still human, not some sort of supernatural creature that would be immune to pain. ---
**Author:** ![senoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@senoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/senoy)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2018, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-more-christians-universalists/813778/52 "2018-05-09T20:46:15Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Next time, try quoting what I say that you object to. You keep leaving out the “Eternal torture” bit-do you have any idea at all what torture can do? Nobody laughs through it, and it doesn’t take an eternity to get _anyone_ to confess, repent, and ask for forgiveness. “Hitler laughing in Hell”, indeed. As evil as Hitler was, he was still human, not some sort of supernatural creature that would be immune to pain. Then your argument makes even less sense. If you’re claiming that it’s impossible for anyone to not repent after some short amount of time and DrDeth is saying that’s all it takes to get to Heaven, then where’s your problem? There is no such thing as eternal torment then according to his model and your claim. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2018, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-more-christians-universalists/813778/53 "2018-05-09T20:46:59Z")
> [@senoy](#): > > Pretty sure you are here. I read it again. Your claim is that if Hitler is in Hell and not sorry for committing genocide then God is somehow ‘bad.’ This means that in order for God to be ‘good’ in your eyes, Hitler shouldn’t be in Hell at some point even if he’s not sorry or even ecstatic about his genocidal ways. I think that you’re going to need some serious rhetorical gymnastics to say that that’s not siding with Hitler. Besides Hitler, who else deserves an eternity in Hell for not repenting? What is the least evil thing a person can do and still deserve such a punishment? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2018, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-more-christians-universalists/813778/54 "2018-05-09T20:50:30Z")
> [@senoy](#): > > Then your argument makes even less sense. If you’re claiming that it’s impossible for anyone to not repent after some short amount of time and DrDeth is saying that’s all it takes to get to Heaven, then where’s your problem? There is no such thing as eternal torment then according to his model and your claim. The point is that confession under such duress is unethical and immoral for Man and/or God, and imagining silly things like “Hitler laughing in Hell” to justify an eternity of punishment is not right. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2018, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-more-christians-universalists/813778/55 "2018-05-09T21:01:24Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Besides Hitler, who else deserves an eternity in Hell for not repenting? > What is the least evil thing a person can do and still deserve such a punishment? After torturing them long enough and hard enough that their mind is destroyed, it stops being about punishment, and starts being about entertainment. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2018, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-more-christians-universalists/813778/56 "2018-05-09T21:03:45Z")
> [@senoy](#): > > Heh, I have, but it’s a pretty weak argument to make against DrDeth’s claim. “If Hitler’s down in Hell laughing it up that he killed millions and God’s leaving him there, then God is an A-hole and one assumes non-existent or somesuch…” all I’m saying is that’s a very interesting position to take. When you’re siding with Hitler on pretty much anything, you probably want to take a good hard look in the mirror and start asking yourself how exactly you got to this point. What told you that I was taking any issue with DrDeth’s claim? That’s an assumption on your part followed by a foolish accusation. ---
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2018, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-more-christians-universalists/813778/57 "2018-05-09T21:37:22Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > And on the topic of Universalism, I get the impression that many Universalists are motivated by a logic that is akin to the appealing-to-consequences fallacy: > > They feel that it is too horrible to believe that some people - in fact, most people - will be burning in torment in Hell for eternity (and yes, it is indeed an awful thing to contemplate.) Their revulsion against this leads them to promote the argument that surely this cannot be true - surely this is too awful to be true - and therefore \*cannot \*be true. > > Of course, there is also a rhetorical/logical/theological component to their arguments as well. But I strongly suspect that their main underlying motive is that they do not \*want \*things such as Hell, or people burning in Hell, to be real. If one doesn’t believe in an all-knowing, all-powerful, all-loving God, then “That’s too awful to be true” is a poor argument for not believing something. But if one _does_ believe in such a God, then it seems to me that it’s actually a pretty good argument. Why wouldn’t God do a better job preventing such a terrible outcome as billions of people being damned for all eternity? You can say: “It’s free will; people have to choose God.” But, shouldn’t God at least be able to construct the most persuasive possible argument? I’ve met at least some Christians who believe that God continues making his case to us after we die, and that at least the vast majority of reasonably decent human beings will eventually be persuaded, regardless of what they believed in life. But for those who don’t believe that, but who believe that this life is our one chance to choose to accept Jesus as our savior or be forever damned, I have to ask: Is the available evidence in favor of Christianity as the one true religion _really_ the best argument God can make? Why not provide more concrete evidence? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2018, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-more-christians-universalists/813778/58 "2018-05-09T22:37:32Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > God as Oliver Hardy-“_Now_ look what you made me do!” > They guy who creates the punishment and decides who gets the punishment isn’t responsible for the punishment? Nope, you have free will. You can pick Heaven or Hell. Are the men who build prisons and pass laws responsible for the criminals who break them? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2018, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-more-christians-universalists/813778/59 "2018-05-09T22:41:02Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I’m sorry, but > > 1. The decision to create Hell is is the fault of the entity that created Hell. > > 2. The decision to make it possible to spend an eternity in Hell is the fault of the entity that created Hell and made the rules… > > 3. The inability to understand that if a person doesn’t truly repent after enough torture they are obviously severely mentally ill means that the entity that created Hell and set the rules is not worthy of my worship. The way I’ve heard Hell described, if I spent a weekend there _I_ would sincerely apologize for killing six million Jews in WWII. The decision to build prisons is whose fault? The decision to commit a crime so heinous that you will spend the rest of you life in prison is whose fault? Was Hitler mentally ill? Maybe, but doesnt he deserve punishment for what he did? Even perhaps eternal punishment? Ok, let’s give him a break- one year in hell for every Jew he had killed- in a particularly horrible way, btw. 600000 years should be enough, eh? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2018, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-more-christians-universalists/813778/60 "2018-05-09T22:42:28Z")
> [@senoy](#): > > Pretty sure you are here. I read it again. Your claim is that if Hitler is in Hell and not sorry for committing genocide then God is somehow ‘bad.’ This means that in order for God to be ‘good’ in your eyes, Hitler shouldn’t be in Hell at some point even if he’s not sorry or even ecstatic about his genocidal ways. I think that you’re going to need some serious rhetorical gymnastics to say that that’s not siding with Hitler. I agree. Altho not quite \*siding \*with Hitler, his claim seems to be Hitler doesn’t deserve punishment for his atrocities. 600000 years in Hell may be too good for him. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-more-christians-universalists/813778.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-more-christians-universalists/813778.md?page=4)