# Why aren't more Christians universalists? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 7, 2018, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-more-christians-universalists/813778 "2018-05-07T19:24:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2018, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-more-christians-universalists/813778/61 "2018-05-09T22:42:45Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Nope, you have free will. You can pick Heaven or Hell. > > Are the men who build prisons and pass laws responsible for the criminals who break them? You used the words “and” and “the” in the same sentence - you’re under arrest. You didn’t know that law? Sucks to be you. And no, don’t tell me that god has laid out his rules more clearly than that - he’s done a piss-poor job of unambiguously presenting to all those he would judge that he even _exists!_ ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2018, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-more-christians-universalists/813778/62 "2018-05-09T22:45:50Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Besides Hitler, who else deserves an eternity in Hell for not repenting? Stalin, Pol Pot, Tojo, Eichman, Mengele, Shirō Ishii … ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2018, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-more-christians-universalists/813778/63 "2018-05-09T22:47:38Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > The point is that confession under such duress is unethical and immoral for Man and/or God, and imagining silly things like “Hitler laughing in Hell” to justify an eternity of punishment is not right. Yes, they have to truly repent, not just say so to avoid punishment. And I think there are people, who like Hitler, would take a very long time (if ever) to repent their evil deeds, as they thought those deeds were justified. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2018, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-more-christians-universalists/813778/64 "2018-05-09T22:49:14Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > You used the words “and” and “the” in the same sentence - you’re under arrest. You didn’t know that law? Sucks to be you. > > And no, don’t tell me that god has laid out his rules more clearly than that - he’s done a piss-poor job of unambiguously presenting to all those he would judge that he even _exists!_ Sure, and many Universalists are Ok that you dont believe, if you live a good life. And, torture, rape, murder and such are pretty universally considered wrong. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2018, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-more-christians-universalists/813778/65 "2018-05-09T22:51:22Z")
> [@tim314](#): > > You can say: “It’s free will; people have to choose God.” But, shouldn’t God at least be able to construct the most persuasive possible argument? I’ve met at least some Christians who believe that God continues making his case to us after we die, and that at least the vast majority of reasonably decent human beings will eventually be persuaded, regardless of what they believed in life. But for those who don’t believe that, but who believe that this life is our one chance to choose to accept Jesus as our savior or be forever damned, I have to ask: Is the available evidence in favor of Christianity as the one true religion _really_ the best argument God can make? Why not provide more concrete evidence? As has been said, many Universalists say that you dont have to accept Jesus, just live a good life. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2018, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-more-christians-universalists/813778/66 "2018-05-09T22:53:11Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > After torturing them long enough and hard enough that their mind is destroyed, it stops being about punishment, and starts being about entertainment. If you accept that the bodies are healed, you can also accept that their minds are healed. They can always knowingly and truly repent. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2018, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-more-christians-universalists/813778/67 "2018-05-09T23:11:38Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Sure, and many Universalists are Ok that you dont believe, if you live a good life. And, torture, rape, murder and such are pretty universally considered wrong. Sadly, not as universally as you might think. There are elements of the US government that both endorse and carry out torture, and feel justified in doing so. Also it’s super-hilarious to call torture universally wrong while also discussing how god tortures people to the point of madness in hell. > [@DrDeth](#): > > If you accept that the bodies are healed, you can also accept that their minds are healed. > > They can always knowingly and truly repent. Define “healed”. If “healed” means “restored to its pre-torture state” then they can never repent, because any changes in their thoughts and opinions will be continually reset preventing growth. If that’s _not_ happening, then you’re either fundamentally changing how their minds work to make them more resilient to torture in which case you’re just replacing their minds with a different person (and then torturing that new person), or (like you said) you’re following a model where they can escape torture if they only repent. You know, like in salem you could be released from torture if you admitted being a witch. Everyone would ‘repent’ eventually. Or go mad first, if they’re stubborn. Or be a new innocent person that was created just to be tortured - in which case, why didn’t you just change him into somebody who would repent instantly? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2018, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-more-christians-universalists/813778/68 "2018-05-09T23:20:13Z")
Oh, and for the record, I personally would be literally incapable of “truly repenting” of anything I didn’t personally consider to be bad or sinful. I mean, yes, I could beg for the pain to stop, and lie and say that yes, saying the f-word was wrong and I was bad and please please please please please stop the pain, but I wouldn’t call that a sincere apology. I’d call that being terrorized and living in terror. It’s impossible to truly apologize for something you don’t believe is wrong. Presumably this applies to Hitler as well. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2018, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-more-christians-universalists/813778/69 "2018-05-09T23:27:19Z")
What about if their religion considers different things to be sins? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2018, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-more-christians-universalists/813778/70 "2018-05-09T23:42:27Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Nope, you have free will. You can pick Heaven or Hell. > > Are the men who build prisons and pass laws responsible for the criminals who break them? Look, I’m in favor of prisons; and in favor of the death penalty, where “in favor” means “willing to serve on the firing squad.” I’m pretty sure I’m pretty far to the right of most folks here on the SDMB on crime and punishment, is what I’m saying; heck, I’ll post links to past threads, if my bona fides need it. But let me just say this about that: the reason I’m in favor of cracking down hard on lawbreakers is because I’m _weak_. I don’t like my odds of stopping a murderer when he’s in the middle of trying to brutally kill me and my family — and _that’s_ why I want him incapacitated, be it locked behind bars or buried six feet under. And yet, as much as I rah-rah-sis-boom-bah the idea of so incapacitating said guy: if you told me we could incapacitate him without imprisoning him or executing him? I’d be all ears. I don’t want him to be punished for the sake of being punished; I want him to be punished because it’s a Before-He-Strikes-Again scenario. So if you postulate a deity who has enough power over the afterlife to (a) keep that brand of harm at bay by keeping the damned in hell, _and_ who has enough power to (b) do that without making things so damned hellish? But said deity goes balls-out _anyway?_ For, like, an eternity of torture? The idea is, enough power is on tap to get the job done with surroundings that are nicer than the local prison; but we’re postulating a god who has that power and opts for _bitter_ instead of better? Kindly don’t analogize that to me; I okay prisons _because I lack that power._ ---
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2018, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-more-christians-universalists/813778/71 "2018-05-10T02:06:26Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > As has been said, many Universalists say that you dont have to accept Jesus, just live a good life. Right. I wasn’t critiquing Universalism. I was suggesting that the Universalist view is more consistent with belief in a loving God, vs. the position that you have to believe the right things during your life or end up in Hell. The latter seems almost designed to ensure that Hell is well populated. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2018, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-more-christians-universalists/813778/72 "2018-05-10T06:14:31Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > So if you postulate a deity who has enough power over the afterlife to (a) keep that brand of harm at bay by keeping the damned in hell, _and_ who has enough power to (b) do that without making things so damned hellish? But said deity goes balls-out _anyway?_ For, like, an eternity of torture? The idea is, enough power is on tap to get the job done with surroundings that are nicer than the local prison; but we’re postulating a god who has that power and opts for _bitter_ instead of better? Sure, because many will honestly repent, and that’s the whole point. If you send Hitler to the afterlife equivalent of Club Fed, would that really be punishment enough? And if you send Fred the murderer to Club Fed, will he repent? ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2018, 9:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-more-christians-universalists/813778/73 "2018-05-10T09:14:55Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Next time, try quoting what I say that you object to. You keep leaving out the “Eternal torture” bit-do you have any idea at all what torture can do? Nobody laughs through it, and it doesn’t take an eternity to get _anyone_ to confess, repent, and ask for forgiveness. “Hitler laughing in Hell”, indeed. As evil as Hitler was, he was still human, not some sort of supernatural creature that would be immune to pain. Coming in late, but AFAICT, _you’re_ the one who’s insisting that being in Hell means being tortured. Then you’re saying that other people’s beliefs about the nature of Hell are unreasonable on account of torture. Am I missing something that you were responding to along the way, or what? ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2018, 9:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-more-christians-universalists/813778/74 "2018-05-10T09:54:36Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > If you send Hitler to the afterlife equivalent of Club Fed, would that really be punishment enough? > > And if you send Fred the murderer to Club Fed, will he repent? It depends. I’m of the opinion that that only tortures that will be in Hell are those that we bring in with us. Think there’s enough violence and sickness and just plain evil in Hitler’s soul to torture him considerably, in a world without anyone else there for him to torture? I’d say as long as he has to live with himself, with nothing to distract him, Hell will be considerably less comfortable for him than a Club Fed. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2018, 10:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-more-christians-universalists/813778/75 "2018-05-10T10:28:49Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Sure, because many will honestly repent, and that’s the whole point. > > If you send Hitler to the afterlife equivalent of Club Fed, would that really be punishment enough? > > And if you send Fred the murderer to Club Fed, will he repent? What the heck do I care whether a criminal repents? I care whether he’s wreaking more havoc. If he’s _unable_ to so wreak, and me and mine are in an afterlife that’s a paradise compared to what life is like hereabouts, then that’s great; I’m not going to ponder whether what he’s got happens to be punishment enough. (Oh, I’ll mull that stuff while I’m living _here,_ because I’m a means-to-an-end guy with a severely limited amount of power at hand; but a god with the kind of power you’re talking about? What’s the _point?_) ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2018, 11:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-more-christians-universalists/813778/76 "2018-05-10T11:09:15Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Sure, because many will honestly repent, and that’s the whole point. > > If you send Hitler to the afterlife equivalent of Club Fed, would that really be punishment enough? > > And if you send Fred the murderer to Club Fed, will he repent? What do you think Hell should be like? ---
**Author:** ![ElderSign](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eldersign/32/8263_2.png) [@ElderSign](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElderSign)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2018, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-more-christians-universalists/813778/77 "2018-05-10T14:12:06Z")
William Lane Craig: 1. Would you want a court judge that lets all criminals go free, so he could show off his universal compassion? 2. Hell is being apart from God/rejecting Jesus. It was your choice. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2018, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-more-christians-universalists/813778/78 "2018-05-10T14:28:32Z")
> [@ElderSign](#): > > William Lane Craig: > > 1. Would you want a court judge that lets all criminals go free, so he could show off his universal compassion? > 2. Hell is being apart from God/rejecting Jesus. It was your choice. That may be what your particular sect believes, but that belief is not universal. edited to add: Why are the only choices letting everyone go free, or punishing them for eternity? ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2018, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-more-christians-universalists/813778/79 "2018-05-10T14:38:15Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Stalin, Pol Pot, Tojo, Eichman, Mengele, Shirō Ishii … The correct Christian answer is that we are not here to judge others. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2018, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-more-christians-universalists/813778/80 "2018-05-10T14:47:47Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > That may be what your particular sect believes, but that belief is not universal. > > edited to add: Why are the only choices letting everyone go free, or punishing them for eternity? Your definition of punishment is the problem. Punishment is not necessarily beating, burning, and endless torture. Punishment is spending eternity absent God. That shouldn’t bother someone who consistently denies a God exists. Rethink your definition of punishment and you’ll have a better understanding. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-more-christians-universalists/813778.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-more-christians-universalists/813778.md?page=5)