# Why aren't more Christians universalists? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 7, 2018, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-more-christians-universalists/813778 "2018-05-07T19:24:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2018, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-more-christians-universalists/813778/81 "2018-05-10T14:51:21Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > Your definition of punishment is the problem. Punishment is not necessarily beating, burning, and endless torture. Punishment is spending eternity absent God. That shouldn’t bother someone who consistently denies a God exists. Rethink your definition of punishment and you’ll have a better understanding. Rethink your belief that your belief about the nature of Hell is universal. Went to churches of various denominations throughout my life, and the “Hell is just separation from God” version came up rarely. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2018, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-more-christians-universalists/813778/82 "2018-05-10T15:07:27Z")
We’re you sleeping then? Because it comes up. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2018, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-more-christians-universalists/813778/83 "2018-05-10T15:13:24Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > It depends. I’m of the opinion that that only tortures that will be in Hell are those that we bring in with us. Think there’s enough violence and sickness and just plain evil in Hitler’s soul to torture him considerably, in a world without anyone else there for him to torture? > > I’d say as long as he has to live with himself, with nothing to distract him, Hell will be considerably less comfortable for him than a Club Fed. Well, there’s no shortage of “I died and went to hell” stories where the dead stand in vast fields, surrounded by each other but too engrossed in their own pain and anguish to interact with each other. Or where they are truly alone with themselves for all eternity. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2018, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-more-christians-universalists/813778/84 "2018-05-10T15:16:52Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > We’re you sleeping then? Because it comes up. Like I said, it seldom came up in the churches I attended when I grew up, and unless you were at those same churches I doubt you have any knowledge at all about what they taught. [The idea that Hell is just separation from God is definitely not universal.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell#Punishment) ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2018, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-more-christians-universalists/813778/85 "2018-05-10T15:23:25Z")
[What different Christian denominations believe about the nature of Hell.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_views_on_Hell) ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2018, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-more-christians-universalists/813778/86 "2018-05-10T15:39:13Z")
In a world with over 4000 religions (belief/faith systems), you want a broad consensus on events and prophesies? Or shall we limit it to the Christian sects? Jewish Christianity, Pauline Christianity and Gnostic Christianity are all sources of Christianity. and guess what, they differ. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2018, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-more-christians-universalists/813778/87 "2018-05-10T15:47:31Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > In a world with over 4000 religions (belief/faith systems), you want a broad consensus on events and prophesies? Or shall we limit it to the Christian sects? Jewish Christianity, Pauline Christianity and Gnostic Christianity are all sources of Christianity. and guess what, they differ. I’m the one saying there is no broad consensus(as my links obviously point out), so asserting that Hell is “Separation from God” is the goto in this conversation doesn’t work, personal beliefs of some participating in this thread notwithstanding. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2018, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-more-christians-universalists/813778/88 "2018-05-10T15:49:41Z")
There’s a reason Hypnos (Sleep) and Thanatos (Death) are twin gods, and it would tend to indicate that there is no consciousness of existence in Death in their belief system. Like the article says, Sheol just means ‘grave’, not ‘hell’. And a total WTF from that article that I admit that I laughed at, but did not link clicky; Swedenborgianism See Swedenborgianism ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2018, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-more-christians-universalists/813778/89 "2018-05-10T16:18:15Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I’m the one saying there is no broad consensus(as my links obviously point out), so asserting that Hell is “Separation from God” is the goto in this conversation doesn’t work, personal beliefs of some participating in this thread notwithstanding. You’re free to believe anything you choose. You can believe that unbaptized individuals go to a physical hell for eternity where they suffer in the company of the lowest form of humanity. If you believe that, you can find someone with a Church somewhere who thinks you’re right. You can also believe that your “hell” may be no worse than throwing a few logs on the fire to keep warm. No sunny pastures to lay down in. Assume there is a God, and he gave mankind a church to run. Do you really think man could do that without totally screwing it up, let alone agreeing about anything God had said? ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2018, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-more-christians-universalists/813778/90 "2018-05-10T16:28:59Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > [What different Christian denominations believe about the nature of Hell.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_views_on_Hell) And your point is, what? That anyone who talks about Hell has to mean a Hell with eternal torture, because many of the conceptions of Hell at the link include that? ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2018, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-more-christians-universalists/813778/91 "2018-05-10T16:32:01Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Like I said, it seldom came up in the churches I attended when I grew up, and unless you were at those same churches I doubt you have any knowledge at all about what they taught. Anecdata, then. > [@](#): > > [The idea that Hell is just separation from God is definitely not universal.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell#Punishment) Not universal, sure. But IMA (in my anecdata) it’s pretty common. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2018, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-more-christians-universalists/813778/92 "2018-05-10T16:37:59Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > Your definition of punishment is the problem. Punishment is not necessarily beating, burning, and endless torture. Punishment is spending eternity absent God. That shouldn’t bother someone who consistently denies a God exists. From _Catch-22_: > [@](#): > > “What the hell are you getting so upset about?” he asked her bewilderedly in a tone of contrite amusement. “I thought you didn’t believe in God.” > > “I don’t,” she sobbed, bursting violently into tears. “But the God I don’t believe in is a good God, a just God, a merciful God. He’s not the mean and stupid God you make Him out to be.” > > Yossarian laughed and turned her arms loose. “Let’s have a little more religious freedom between us,” he proposed obligingly. “You don’t believe in the God you want to, and I won’t believe in the God I want to. Is that a deal?” ---
**Author:** ![StusBlues](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@StusBlues](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StusBlues)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2018, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-more-christians-universalists/813778/93 "2018-05-10T16:44:58Z")
Because salvation is not free. It comes with a DEFINITE cost. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2018, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-more-christians-universalists/813778/94 "2018-05-10T16:49:32Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > What do you think Hell should be like? I am not sure. Something that makes a sinner sincerely want to repent. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2018, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-more-christians-universalists/813778/95 "2018-05-10T16:49:39Z")
> [@StusBlues](#): > > Because salvation is not free. It comes with a DEFINITE cost. Wouldn’t the standard Christian answer to that be “Yes, and Jesus paid that cost”? ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2018, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-more-christians-universalists/813778/96 "2018-05-10T16:49:49Z")
> [@StusBlues](#): > > Because salvation is not free. It comes with a DEFINITE cost. What’s the cost? Bible says it’s free, fwiw. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2018, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-more-christians-universalists/813778/97 "2018-05-10T16:51:10Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > The correct Christian answer is that we are not here to judge others. But God is. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2018, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-more-christians-universalists/813778/98 "2018-05-10T16:52:37Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > Your definition of punishment is the problem. Punishment is not necessarily beating, burning, and endless torture. Punishment is spending eternity absent God. That shouldn’t bother someone who consistently denies a God exists. Rethink your definition of punishment and you’ll have a better understanding. That is indeed, one definition of the punishment of Hell. Going without the love of God in a grey featureless boring place, and being totally aware that YOUR actions sent you there. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2018, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-more-christians-universalists/813778/99 "2018-05-10T16:58:40Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > [What different Christian denominations believe about the nature of Hell.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_views_on_Hell) “Hell is a spiritual state of separation from God and inability to experience the love of God, while being conscious of the ultimate deprivation of it as punishment.” Orthodox. “Rather than a place, hell indicates the state of those who freely and definitively separate themselves from God, the source of all life and joy” Catholic. “…after serving their sentence in Gehenna, all souls are reconciled to God and admitted to heaven, or ways are found at the time of death of drawing all souls to repentance so that no “hellish” suffering is experienced.” Universalist. But yes, various protestant denominations have widely varying views on hell. ---
**Author:** ![StusBlues](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@StusBlues](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StusBlues)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2018, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-more-christians-universalists/813778/100 "2018-05-10T17:41:09Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > What’s the cost? Bout tree fiddy. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-more-christians-universalists/813778.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-more-christians-universalists/813778.md?page=6)