# Why Aren't People Working? (Personal anecdotes only) **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [January 5, 2024, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-people-working-personal-anecdotes-only/995662 "2024-01-05T17:34:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 29
**Author:** ![sunacres](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@sunacres](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sunacres)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2024, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-people-working-personal-anecdotes-only/995662/561 "2024-01-29T21:48:04Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > Whereas others seem very stressed that despite being an average person with no amazing talents, they think they ought to be able to emulate lifestyles of the rich and famous. I eventually stopped being stunned when employees asked for a raise because they just bought a new car and the payments are higher than on the old one. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2024, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-people-working-personal-anecdotes-only/995662/562 "2024-01-29T22:24:58Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Modern capitlaism is not ‘designed’ to keep workers in shitty jobs I didn’t say it was. I said that this particular type of “bootstraps” exhortation or “personal responsibility” gospel is designed to do so. No, that doesn’t mean there’s some kind of Evil Overlord consciously coordinating the propaganda. But recommending individual solutions, which are realistically available only to a minority of workers, as a remedy for large-scale structural problems is a lazy evasion that is ultimately geared toward deflecting workers’ dissatisfaction rather than fixing it. > [@Dinsdale](#): > > What part of a “shitty” job/lifestyle depends on expectations? Lots, of course. My own (entirely satisfactory to me) lifestyle would be considered “shitty” by a lot of people based on differing expectations about material ownership, for example. A lot of the structural issues associated with job shittiness could actually be addressed by policies on healthcare, public transport, etc., rather than by directly modifying job conditions. > [@sunacres](#): > > I eventually stopped being stunned when employees asked for a raise because they just bought a new car and the payments are higher than on the old one. I’m surprised that stunned you. Employees have been asking for raises based on their own needs since pretty much time immemorial, AFAICT. (See also: “family wage”, where the marriage of a male employee was considered to entitle him to an increase in compensation appropriate to his new family responsibilities.) “I can ask for more money because (I think) I need it, and you can decide whether you need me enough to pay it” was a very common transactional mindset among employees until quite recently, AFAICT. The employer attitude of “how dare you even suggest that I pay you more money unless you can show directly how it’s in my best interests to do so” is what’s more modern. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2024, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-people-working-personal-anecdotes-only/995662/563 "2024-01-29T22:57:38Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > The employer attitude of “how dare you even suggest that I pay you more money unless you can show directly how it’s in my best interests to do so” is what’s more modern. Hell, employers today do this even when it is in their best interests to pay more, since they seem to ignore the costs of turnover. As for “design” the Republicans resistance to increasing the federal minimum wage from the absurd $7.25 an hour looks like a design to screw the workers affected by it to me. ---
**Author:** ![sunacres](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@sunacres](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sunacres)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2024, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-people-working-personal-anecdotes-only/995662/564 "2024-01-29T23:00:23Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > I’m surprised that stunned you. Employees have been asking for raises based on their own needs since pretty much time immemorial, AFAICT. Only the idiots, a small minority of my employees at the time. But it did get me to start encouraging everyone to do regular job searches to be sure that they were in the job that they wanted to be in at a salary that was appropriate given their options. Granted, this was a time and place where workers and jobs were abundant and fluid. It helped for folks to get some perspective. ---
**Author:** ![leahcim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/b4bc9f/32.png) [@leahcim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leahcim)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2024, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-people-working-personal-anecdotes-only/995662/565 "2024-01-29T23:49:31Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > At an individual-goals level, sure. But at an entire-workforce level, if the system is fundamentally set up so that most jobs are shitty, then it’s statistically impossible for more than a small minority of workers to get a substantially better job. Reminds my of one of my favourite classic Cracked [articles](https://www.cracked.com/blog/6-things-rich-people-need-to-stop-saying): > [@Cracked](#): > > It’s like setting a jar of moonshine on the floor of a boxcar full of 10 hobos and saying, “Now fight for it!” Sure, in the bloody aftermath you can say to each of the losers, “Hey, you could have had it if you’d fought harder!” and that’s true on an individual level. But not collectively – you knew goddamned well that nine hobos weren’t getting any hooch that night. So why are you acting like it’s their fault that only one of them is drunk? ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2024, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-people-working-personal-anecdotes-only/995662/566 "2024-01-30T00:16:43Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > No, that doesn’t mean there’s some kind of Evil Overlord consciously coordinating the propaganda. Right. It’s more like a Committee of Evil Overlords. ---
**Author:** ![StGermain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stgermain/32/2868_2.png) [@StGermain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StGermain)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2024, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-people-working-personal-anecdotes-only/995662/567 "2024-01-30T00:35:32Z")
My sister held intermittent jobs. My parents helped support her, because she was a single mom, and they didn’t want their grandkids to do without. Our father died, and my mother told her the gravy train was over. She’d been working at JoAnn Fabrics part time. She told me one day that she quit that job; she said, “I told them I’d rather ask “Do you want fries with that?” than work for them any longer”. She didn’t bother to get another job. She got on disability, and has been living a shoestring life ever since. The thing is, she seemed happier when she was working, all about what happened that day at work, about her coworkers and customers. Now, 20 years later, her main topic of conversation is her health. I have an internet acquaintance who lost his job as a software guy. He never really looked for another job. He worked for Target for a while, but got fired for cause. He had been a closeted gay man, and came out. But then apparently was sexually harassing male coworkers. He admitted it. He got banned from college football practices for taking close ups of football players asses. He never tried to find another job. He lives with his mother, having lost his house for non-payment. StG ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2024, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-people-working-personal-anecdotes-only/995662/568 "2024-01-30T02:32:41Z")
> [@StGermain](#): > > he thing is, she seemed happier when she was working, all about what happened that day at work, about her coworkers and customers. Now, 20 years later, her main topic of conversation is her health. I worry that for some people their lives would be significantly improved by just having literally any job. It’s a chicken and egg situation I guess, but my beloved Aunt has been dealing with various disabilities for years. My Aunt was a successful dog groomer and highly independent human for the better part of her adult life. What I perceived is that when her husband relocated and got a well-paying job she took care of him (he was having severe ADHD issues at the time, like he’d forget he was in the middle of putting on his socks. She was functionally the mother of an adolescent.) She spent all this time taking care of him and the house, taking care of the dogs and gardening and cooking and dishes and doing everything for him, he didn’t want her to work. Well, after so much time not working she started to get more and more neurotic. She now has severe anxiety, including social anxiety which is difficult to see from someone who was once highly outgoing. Now she believes (rightly?) she is incapable of holding a job. She is dealing with a number of mental and physical disabilities, that again, didn’t really show up until she stopped working. (I’m not claiming she was neurosis free or anything prior to this, but man, things just seemed to get a lot worse.) Her husband now resents that she doesn’t work even though she still does a ton for him. To me, she is like a mother and a sister and a best friend rolled all into one, I’m not about to tell her I think half of her problems could be solved by getting a job, because I know it isn’t that simple, but when I look at where things went wrong in her life, and this cascade of suffering, it really seemed to start with her decision not to work. Because she is not working, she spends entire days getting worked about about political news and feeling bad about herself. I think if she just had a part-time job or something flexible, something she could build a little more confidence in, it would help her. It’s very, very difficult to see someone you love more than anything else in the world suffer like this. You look for answers anywhere you can. ---
**Author:** ![InsomniaMama](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/ad7895/32.png) [@InsomniaMama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/InsomniaMama)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2024, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-people-working-personal-anecdotes-only/995662/569 "2024-01-30T03:00:42Z")
Accenture changed their name based on international binding arbitration. Part of the Arthur Anderson blow up. ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2024, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-people-working-personal-anecdotes-only/995662/570 "2024-01-30T04:40:43Z")
May I ask how the husband had a well-paying job when he couldn’t put on his own socks? ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2024, 9:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-people-working-personal-anecdotes-only/995662/571 "2024-01-30T09:01:14Z")
I’ve met a surprising number of dysfunctional men who nonetheless were able to have careers because of a mother or wife who made sure they put their pants (or socks) on before leaving the house. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2024, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-people-working-personal-anecdotes-only/995662/572 "2024-01-30T13:44:08Z")
> [@InsomniaMama](#): > > Accenture changed their name based on international binding arbitration. Part of the Arthur Anderson blow up. Andersen Consulting the management consulting and IT integration firm had spun off from Arthur Andersen the Big-5 accounting firm a few years prior to Enron. As I recall they held some contest with their employees to come up with the new name. Point is that Accenture was already Accenture by the time the Arthur Andersen / Enron blow up happed to what was now a completely different entity. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2024, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-people-working-personal-anecdotes-only/995662/573 "2024-01-30T14:09:58Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Modern capitlaism is not ‘designed’ to keep workers in shitty jobs for the simple reason that modern capitalism isn’t designed. It’s what you get when people don’t try to design an economy. It’s emergent, and complex, and there are a million reasons for everything that happens in a capitalist economy. Trying to break it down into good vs evil, oppressor vs oppressed, capitalists vs workers, is attempting to apply an incredibly simple framework to extremely complex systems. That is why I am a proponent of free markets. An economy is too complex to have someone say “we should produce more X” or “we need to train more Y”. It functions as the result of billions of individual transactions and decisions on how much someone is willing to pay or work for Job A vs Job B. That’s what Liberals don’t seem to get. Just because an admin gets her MBA at night does not mean she gets to step into a management job. She would still need to compete with say, someone like me getting the same MBA in the same evenings. But where she was working as an admin, I had worked as a civil engineer, then spent a couple of years in IT consulting writing code and leading small project teams. And both of us may have to complete with someone who got their MBA from Harvard Business School who had all the right internships and analyst program jobs since grade school. Which leads me to the point that Conservatives and Libertarians seem not to get. That it is not an equal playing field where someone who demonstrates hard work will get ahead. The economy is not all perfectly competitive markets where buyers and sellers can enter and exit freely. “Modern capitalism” may not have been ‘designed’, but large corporations and other institutions are designed and they are structured around laws (or vice versus, as the case may be). So IOW it’s not out of the question to question those various laws and policies to understand if they are designed to actually enable the free and transparent market conditions required in a truly capitalist economy. Or if they are meant to entrench an upper class through protectionism and/or codifying classism, racism, sexism, and other biases. I don’t really have an answer or anything. Now if you’ll excuse me, I have to get back to my very important job of writing a proposal so my firm can help some fintech enable some Wall Street bank expand their market to small children. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2024, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-people-working-personal-anecdotes-only/995662/574 "2024-01-30T14:36:30Z")
> [@nearwildheaven](#): > > May I ask how the husband had a well-paying job when he couldn’t put on his own socks? ADHD is a neurodevelopmental disorder resulting in poor dopamine response and emotion dysregulation, thus making it difficult to prioritize and sustain attention on things that don’t interest you. However, if the ADHD brain latches onto something it finds interesting, all bets are off. Things like putting on your socks or doing chores or X mundane thing offer limited dopamine reward (the way neurotypical brains are rewarded for basically every task they do) so it can’t compete with Thing You Absolutely Must Do Now. Thus, while it seems counterintuitive, for certain activities the brain finds stimulating, the ADHD brain is capable of sustained attention for longer than the average, non-ADHD individual, sometimes to the point of absurdity. We can get so interested in something that we forget to eat, or attend to other physical needs, or completely lose track of time. Many people with ADHD refer to this ability as “[hyperfocus](https://www.additudemag.com/understanding-adhd-hyperfocus/).” It can be a negative thing (as in the case of struggling to get through the morning routine) or it can be a professional asset (the ability to sustain work you’re passionate about for hours and hours a day.) My ADHD isn’t as bad as my uncle’s, he’s truly the worst case I’ve ever seen, but certainly I can relate to being distracted in the middle of dressing by some other, more interesting thing. His primary issues are with video games and the internet. My Aunt doesn’t see much of him. However, he is being treated and is a lot better than he used to be. The reason stimulant medications can be so profound for people with ADHD is that it gives your brain dopamine for all that other shit that typical people get to have dopamine responses for. My struggles with ADHD have mostly been domestic, and Vyvanse was a complete game changer. Suddenly things like laundry and housework actually have a fighting chance to gain my attention. Sorry for the mini-lecture, it’s just that ADHD is a really misunderstood disorder. People think it’s an attention deficit (the name doesn’t help), but as more research has come in over the last couple of decades, it’s become clear that ADHD is a _selective_ attention problem. It’s not a problem with focus but rather a problem with _what_ you focus on. In short, the best explanation for how he could succeed as a student and as an engineer, but struggle with mundane tasks, is that he finds his work really interesting, so interesting that he hyperfixates on it. That, and, he’s the smartest person I have ever met, and smart people with ADHD often have learned to compensate academically and professionally by becoming incredibly efficient at their jobs. ---
**Author:** ![echoreply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/echoreply/32/3641_2.png) [@echoreply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/echoreply)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2024, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-people-working-personal-anecdotes-only/995662/575 "2024-01-30T15:31:45Z")
This is an interesting one. About 250,000 more teens are working now than before the pandemic. So someone is filling those low end service jobs, and 80s flash back time, it’s teens again. I’m sure it is helpful that the pay has gone up quite a bit over the last few years. As for anecdotes, here is one from the interview: > You know, they are so different from the millennials before them. These teens are really excited, and they want shifts. So the first time I heard it, I kind of was like, “OK, whatever.” As a millennial, I was a little defensive, but I kept hearing it from every single employer. I heard this on Marketplace, but also linked is the original Washington Post article. > **[Teen employment hit a 14-year high in 2023 - Marketplace](https://www.marketplace.org/2024/01/29/teen-workforce-rise/)** > > "About 37% of teens worked last year," says Abha Bhattarai of The Washington Post. "These teens are really excited," employers tell her. > **[Gen Z is bringing back the part-time job](https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2024/01/21/teen-jobs-pandemic-wages/)** > > Teen employment reached a 14-year high last year, as new opportunities and higher wages draw high schoolers to the workforce. ---
**Author:** ![InsomniaMama](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/ad7895/32.png) [@InsomniaMama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/InsomniaMama)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2024, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-people-working-personal-anecdotes-only/995662/576 "2024-01-30T17:27:35Z")
Wikipedia and I agree that they were forced to change their name due to the arbitration between Arthur Andersen and Andersen Consulting. But whatever. Moving on! ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2024, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-people-working-personal-anecdotes-only/995662/577 "2024-01-30T20:25:16Z")
The part-time nanny who cared for my son was a youngster, I believe she was 19 years old when we hired her, and she had a fair amount of babysitting experience by then. It’s been 2-3 years and while our son has alternative child care now, she is still his babysitter, and continues to be his favorite person on the planet. She is slowly working her way through college living with her parents and saving money and it has been a pretty nice arrangement for all parties. ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2024, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-people-working-personal-anecdotes-only/995662/578 "2024-01-30T22:42:03Z")
Too many people think ADHD, especially in children, is exhibited by violent, antisocial behavior, and that it can be beaten or punished out of a child. It’s not, and it can’t. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2024, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-people-working-personal-anecdotes-only/995662/579 "2024-01-30T23:26:34Z")
Yeah, my uncle also has PTSD because of that belief. Our childhoods were very similar in some ways. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2024, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-people-working-personal-anecdotes-only/995662/580 "2024-01-30T23:49:13Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > That’s what Liberals don’t seem to get. Just because an admin gets her MBA at night does not mean she gets to step into a management job. She would still need to compete with say, someone like me getting the same MBA in the same evenings. But where she was working as an admin, I had worked as a civil engineer, then spent a couple of years in IT consulting writing code and leading small project teams. > > And both of us may have to complete with someone who got their MBA from Harvard Business School who had all the right internships and analyst program jobs since grade school. It’s not about being a “Liberal” - it’s about being fully and truly informed about the situation, without being gaslit or lied to. The situation I was describing upthread was the HR part of company hard-selling getting an MBA to the non-management people, very much holding it out as the way to get ahead. A bunch of people put in the time and then were found out that there wasn’t a chance in hell they could advance at that company _no matter what they did_. I spotted that early and didn’t opt for the MBA program because I couldn’t see a return on my investment of time and energy (and probably some money as well). Instead of going to school at night I helped my spouse with his business - no advanced degree required. I like to think I made an informed choice. Other people made other choices but I’m not so sure they really knew that while they were getting an MBA as far as the company they were working for it was a useless degree. Certainly, it could be useful elsewhere - some who left probably found it so, and were in the end happy to have gotten an advanced degree on the cheap. Others, though, were extremely bitter and felt they had been deceived and lied to, and I can’t say they were entirely out of line. “Get and MBA and advance in your career” was a message pounded out pretty heavily (why, I don’t know) and pushed hard by HR for at least 10 of the years I was there. > [@msmith537](#): > > Which leads me to the point that Conservatives and Libertarians seem not to get. That it is not an equal playing field where someone who demonstrates hard work will get ahead. The economy is not all perfectly competitive markets where buyers and sellers can enter and exit freely. “ ^ This. Not everyone starts from the same point, and the playing field is weighted in favor of some people more than others. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-people-working-personal-anecdotes-only/995662.md?page=28) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-people-working-personal-anecdotes-only/995662.md?page=30)