# Why aren't prisons racially segregated? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 6, 2010, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-prisons-racially-segregated/559676 "2010-11-06T06:21:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2010, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-prisons-racially-segregated/559676/21 "2010-11-06T16:12:55Z")
Seems to me that this is more in the nature of a debate than a question with a factual answer. Moving to GD. Colibri General Questions Moderator ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2010, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-prisons-racially-segregated/559676/22 "2010-11-06T16:13:43Z")
> [@Mr.Slant](#): > > I think you go in the ‘other’ section if you’re in California. > > Of course, if I was running the place, I’d put you in with the Klingons, as long as we’re making stuff up. Ha, Orcs would destroy Klingons… ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2010, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-prisons-racially-segregated/559676/23 "2010-11-06T16:17:47Z")
The U.S. Supreme Court held that racially segragating prisons is subject to strict scrutiny in [Johnson v. California](http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/03-636.ZS.html), 543 U.S. 499 (2005). ETA: Which doesn’t really advance the debate, I guess - thought this was GQ for some reason. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2010, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-prisons-racially-segregated/559676/24 "2010-11-06T16:20:33Z")
As somebody who has actually worked in prisons, I can say it’s not as bad as the OP thinks. There is a general level of tension and some of it is race based. But prisoners of different races do generally live and work together without it causing a fight. So there’s no official policy of racial segregation in New York prisons. But we’re also supposed to avoid fights as much as possible. So unofficially we may adopt some racial segregation in practice. If we know there are prisoners who will fight with prisoners of other races, we’re not going to lock them in a cell together to prove a point. We’ll put a white prisoner in a double cell with another white prisoner if we suspect he’d fight with a black prisoner (and vice versa). But that’s for double cells only. I’ve never seen a full housing unit or work area or rec area that was exclusive to one race. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Slant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c57346/32.png) [@Mr.Slant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Slant)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2010, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-prisons-racially-segregated/559676/25 "2010-11-06T16:22:54Z")
> [@orcenio](#): > > Ha, Orcs would destroy Klingons… I’m not saying I wouldn’t operate my prisons for my own amusement… ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2010, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-prisons-racially-segregated/559676/26 "2010-11-06T16:59:31Z")
> [@pravnik](#): > > ETA: Which doesn’t really advance the debate, I guess - thought this was GQ for some reason. > [@Colibri](#): > > Seems to me that this is more in the nature of a debate than a question with a factual answer. Moving to GD. > > Colibri > General Questions Moderator Ah, missed that. Though I was losing it for a second. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![BlackKnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eb8c5e/32.png) [@BlackKnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlackKnight)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2010, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-prisons-racially-segregated/559676/27 "2010-11-06T19:06:00Z")
> [@Apollo](#): > > I’ve always been fascinated by the US penal system which primary function seems to be to inflict as much discomfort and punishment upon the inmates as possible, … Do you honestly believe this? I can think of dozens, if not hundreds, of ways to make incarceration much, much less pleasant. (I’m not necessarily endorsing those ideas.) I think “inflict as much discomfort and punishment as possible” is an extraordinarily exaggerated statement. Put another way: If the primary purpose of US prisons is to cause as much discomfort as possible, then they have a lot of learning to do from (for example) the Russians. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2010, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-prisons-racially-segregated/559676/28 "2010-11-06T20:06:01Z")
> [@Apollo](#): > > I’ve always been fascinated by the US penal system which primary function seems to be to inflict as much discomfort and punishment upon the inmates as possible, the deterrence effect theory of incarceration if you will. Instilling fear of other inmates by facilitating gang division is the natural extension of this system. As for any negative consequences for the guards, I wouldn’t be surprised if playing different racial groupings against each other isn’t part in parcel in keeping the order in the crowded prisons. Don’t be silly. Why on earth would we want to deal with fights? As far as we’re concerned, the best prisoners are the quiet ones who want to sit back and watch TV all day. ---
**Author:** ![Apollo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@Apollo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apollo)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2010, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-prisons-racially-segregated/559676/29 "2010-11-06T20:37:40Z")
> [@BlackKnight](#): > > Do you honestly believe this? I can think of dozens, if not hundreds, of ways to make incarceration much, much less pleasant. (I’m not necessarily endorsing those ideas.) I think “inflict as much discomfort and punishment as possible” is an extraordinarily exaggerated statement. > > Put another way: If the primary purpose of US prisons is to cause as much discomfort as possible, then they have a lot of learning to do from (for example) the Russians. I would concede that the US penal system isn’t **as bad** as the Russian, faint praise as that may be. Americans in general I think would agree that the punishment aspect of imprisonment in addition to the loss of freedom is an intrinsic and central component thereof. Any talk of rehabilitation and preparing prisoners to reenter law abiding productive society is thought of as a waste and is prone to label anyone making such a suggestion a bleeding heart. This is reflected in American politics where being portrayed as “tough on crime” is second only to the ever elusive “fiscally conservative” angle. It is in this kind of environment that things like prison rape can become a punchline and racial violence is relegated to a mere part of the prison experience. ---
**Author:** ![DxZero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@DxZero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DxZero)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2010, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-prisons-racially-segregated/559676/30 "2010-11-06T22:14:55Z")
> [@Apollo](#): > > I would concede that the US penal system isn’t **as bad** as the Russian, faint praise as that may be. > > Americans in general I think would agree that the punishment aspect of imprisonment in addition to the loss of freedom is an intrinsic and central component thereof. > > Any talk of rehabilitation and preparing prisoners to reenter law abiding productive society is thought of as a waste and is prone to label anyone making such a suggestion a bleeding heart. > > This is reflected in American politics where being portrayed as “tough on crime” is second only to the ever elusive “fiscally conservative” angle. It is in this kind of environment that things like prison rape can become a punchline and racial violence is relegated to a mere part of the prison experience. Wow…there may be a lot of problems with the American justice system, but your view of how prisoners are treated in the U.S. is not even remotely close to accurate. Many, if not all prisons, have recreational areas and exercise equipment for the prisoners. They have the opportunity to attend educational and vocational classes and earn a degree while incarcerated. Depending on the prison, they might have access to television and board games. A lot of prisoners before they are done their sentence are allowed to move into a halfway house and obtain placements in employment. Even those still locked up are paid for any work they do within the prison. (They’re paid poorly and its required by law that they be paid, but still.) Most prisons aren’t anywhere close to the way they are portrayed on television and in the movies. As far as racial violence goes, there is going to be violence in prisons because well, a lot of people locked up are violent people. Stick enough of them together in a tight place and you’re gonna have you some fights. If the prison guards affected a dog eat dog attitude with regard to violence, they’re gonna wind up next on the hit list. If nothing else, self preservation makes it necessary to keep the inmates under control. While the punishment aspect of prison is still key, there has been a much greater push for a rehabilitation of prisoners since at least 1950’s. Heck, they’re not even officially named penitentiaries anymore. They’re correctional facilities. ---
**Author:** ![Cheshire\_Human](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Cheshire\_Human](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheshire_Human)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2010, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-prisons-racially-segregated/559676/31 "2010-11-06T22:54:19Z")
> [@orcenio](#): > > I’m half-orc, half-enio where the hell are you going to put me? In a zoo, between the orcs and the enios, where else. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Cheshire\_Human](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Cheshire\_Human](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheshire_Human)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2010, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-prisons-racially-segregated/559676/32 "2010-11-06T23:01:09Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > As somebody who has actually worked in prisons,… in New York prisons. NY? Which prisons? I’m wondering if you’ve ever locked up anyone I know. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Apollo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@Apollo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apollo)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2010, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-prisons-racially-segregated/559676/33 "2010-11-06T23:02:56Z")
> [@DxZero](#): > > Wow…there may be a lot of problems with the American justice system, but your view of how prisoners are treated in the U.S. is not even remotely close to accurate. Many, if not all prisons, have recreational areas and exercise equipment for the prisoners. They have the opportunity to attend educational and vocational classes and earn a degree while incarcerated. Depending on the prison, they might have access to television and board games. A lot of prisoners before they are done their sentence are allowed to move into a halfway house and obtain placements in employment. Even those still locked up are paid for any work they do within the prison. (They’re paid poorly and its required by law that they be paid, but still.) Most prisons aren’t anywhere close to the way they are portrayed on television and in the movies. I admit that the account given on the state of US prisons is strictly my impression from years of watching various US documentary series, inside looks and 60 minute reports and as such may be lacking. Interestingly enough the extent of my knowledge seems to me on par with several other posters on this thread which I assume are of American citizenry. I will of course acquiesce to anyone with real life firsthand experience and consider my ignorance fought. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2010, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-prisons-racially-segregated/559676/34 "2010-11-06T23:35:56Z")
> [@Cheshire\_Human](#): > > In a zoo, between the orcs and the enios, where else. 😃 There isn’t a zoo made, that can contain a mighty **orcenio**! My Enio peeps would bust me out. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2010, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-prisons-racially-segregated/559676/35 "2010-11-07T01:07:09Z")
> [@](#): > > NY? Which prisons? I’m wondering if you’ve ever locked up anyone I know. 😃 I worked in Attica, Clinton, Fishkill, Livingston, Mid-Orange, Orleans, Shawangunk, Southport, and Wallkill. From 1982 to 2010. > [@](#): > > I admit that the account given on the state of US prisons is strictly my impression from years of watching various US documentary series, inside looks and 60 minute reports and as such may be lacking. > > Interestingly enough the extent of my knowledge seems to me on par with several other posters on this thread which I assume are of American citizenry. > > I will of course acquiesce to anyone with real life firsthand experience and consider my ignorance fought. See above. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2010, 7:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-prisons-racially-segregated/559676/36 "2010-11-07T07:54:38Z")
> [@BrotherCadfael](#): > > Uh, because it’s illegal? > > Just a guess. Why wouldn’t it also be illegal to segregate by sex? They do that all the time. Actually, are there any coed prisons? ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2010, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-prisons-racially-segregated/559676/37 "2010-11-07T16:28:00Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Why wouldn’t it also be illegal to segregate by sex? They do that all the time. Actually, are there any coed prisons? Authorities would have very little trouble making a showing that segregating prisons by sex satisfies intermediate scrutiny, for extremely compelling reasons based in both history and biology…although I would very much like to read the pro se inmate’s brief arguing for sexual desegregation of the prison system. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2010, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-prisons-racially-segregated/559676/38 "2010-11-07T17:32:52Z")
> [@pravnik](#): > > Authorities would have very little trouble making a showing that segregating prisons by sex satisfies intermediate scrutiny, for extremely compelling reasons based in both history and biology This reminds me of what was one of the more difficult parts of my job. We’d get legal challenges to various policies and practices and we’d have to counter with an explanation of why we were doing things the way we did. I unfortunately was good at this. So when we were doing something really stupid and had to come up with a plausible explanation of why we were doing it, I was the go-to guy. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 10:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-prisons-racially-segregated/559676/39 "2010-11-09T10:15:00Z")
> [@pravnik](#): > > Authorities would have very little trouble making a showing that segregating prisons by sex satisfies intermediate scrutiny, for extremely compelling reasons based in both history and biology…although I would very much like to read the pro se inmate’s brief arguing for sexual desegregation of the prison system. 😃 I agree it would be funny. But, if you don’t mind, what history is there of coed prisons, and what bad things happened that can’t happen in a segregated population? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-prisons-racially-segregated/559676/40 "2010-11-09T16:36:03Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > I agree it would be funny. But, if you don’t mind, what history is there of coed prisons, and what bad things happened that can’t happen in a segregated population? If I had to write up a rationale for this, I’d point out that this would increase the chances of rape or other sexual crimes as prisoners are more likely to commit these crimes against prisoners of the opposite genders than they would against prisoners of their own gender. And I’d point out that the presense of male and female prisoners in the same environment would cause an increase in sexual relationships between prisoners, which would lead to an increase in the security and other problems caused by sexual relationships, including the added factor of pregnancies that would not exist in same-sex sexual relationships. If you gave me a few days, I’d probably think of some more things. And then I’d have a whole bunch of statisitics to document all of this. Like I said, this was the kind of thing I used to have to do. I never had to write up a rationale explaining why co-ed prisons were a bad idea, but I did once have to write one up explaining why it would be a bad idea to allow a prisoner to carry a sword. In legal cases you can’t just say “Duh, that’s obvious.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-prisons-racially-segregated/559676.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-prisons-racially-segregated/559676.md?page=3)