# Why aren't pro-lifers more extreme? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 10, 2015, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-pro-lifers-more-extreme/727456 "2015-08-10T15:52:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2015, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-pro-lifers-more-extreme/727456/21 "2015-08-10T17:31:39Z")
> [@Tithonus](#): > > I see your point, but I don’t think the comparison works. Firstly, it’s obviously far riskier to go fight ISIS than kill an abortionist. Secondly, killing an abortionist would have much more impact than killing a thousand jihadis because as Gigobuster pointed out, not only would you be stopping the abortions that abortionist would have carried out but you’d be discouraging other doctors from going into the field. > > I’m aware I’m getting dangerously close to arguing for violence towards people who I think do a necessary and important job. That’s the last thing I’d actually want to happen. I just can’t reconcile the beliefs of pro-lifers with their (relative lack of) extreme action. I don’t think it’s riskier to go fight ISIS, nor that it would have much less impact (killing political revolutions is in general a good way of suppressing political revolution). The reasons most pro-lifers don’t engage in political violence is exactly the same reason they don’t go fight ISIS, because the risks would be very great and it wouldn’t accomplish all that much. Also, as a matter of principle a lot of people believe political violence is the rightful monopoly of the state, not private individuals. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2015, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-pro-lifers-more-extreme/727456/22 "2015-08-10T17:54:22Z")
Abortions don’t happen because abortion doctors sneak into unsuspecting pregnant women’s bedrooms and force them to have abortions. Again, what are your political views? Do you believe that climate change is going to lead to crop failures and wars? Then why aren’t you shooting at Exxon executives? Why aren’t you blowing up gas stations? Why aren’t you slashing the tires of all the cars on your block? Why aren’t you murdering anti-nuclear activists? I’m sure you have plenty of reasons for why you don’t do those things. So why can’t you understand why pro-life people don’t do those things? You’ve created a straw man, and now you’re complaining that people don’t act like you expect your straw man to act. Of course you’re correct that pro-lifers don’t really think that abortion is murder, not really, because they focus on punishing the abortion providers and not the women who get the abortions. I mean, during the Ceausescu Romanian dictatorship women who were discovered to have had abortions really were jailed, so it’s not impossible. But in general pro-lifers don’t advocate treating pregnant women who have abortions exactly the same as women who murder their children. So they don’t really think abortion is murder, not exactly. But so what? That doesn’t mean that they don’t think abortion is wrong. And not violently preventing abortion doesn’t mean that they’re wrong to think abortion is wrong, neither does it make them right. Willingness to murder people to enforce your moral beliefs is not a measure for how right those beliefs are, or how strongly you believe in them. Murdering abortion providers makes it harder to get an abortion, but it doesn’t stop abortion, because abortion is legal. So if you want to stop abortion, what’s the point of murdering the doctors? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2015, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-pro-lifers-more-extreme/727456/23 "2015-08-10T18:52:30Z")
I think you guys are taking the OP too lightly. We’ve had this debate before on this MB, but think of it this way. Suppose that the government instituted a policy that any parent could bring a minor child into a clinic and have that child “put down”. Suppose that this was happening at a rate of 1M children per year being killed. Wouldn’t you expect there to be some significant armed resistance to such a policy? Or, what if the government decided IT was going to select the 1 million children being killed, based on… it doesn’t matter what it’s based on. Let’s say the lowest scoring students on standardized tests. If someone truly believes a fetus is a child, what’s the difference? ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2015, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-pro-lifers-more-extreme/727456/24 "2015-08-10T19:45:56Z")
Talk is cheap. People spout all kinds of grandiose claims about how, faced with some particular situation, they would do this-and-such. Thankfully, most people are full of shit in this regard. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2015, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-pro-lifers-more-extreme/727456/25 "2015-08-10T20:09:43Z")
In America there’s been 58 million abortions since Roe v. Wade. It’s the greatest genocide in world history, to hear pro-lifers tell it. If the government were killing a million American adults a year I’d expect more of a push back. Then again, maybe not. We’re a pretty passive society. Our idea of “doing something” is waving signs around, boycotting restaurants, and signing internet petitions. I doubt I’d start burying weapon caches in the woods or learn how to make bombs, but I know I’m a coward. > [@Lemur866](#): > > Then why aren’t you shooting at Exxon executives? Why aren’t you blowing up gas stations? Why aren’t you slashing the tires of all the cars on your block? Why aren’t you murdering anti-nuclear activists? A network of a couple thousand terrorists would barely dent American energy, unless they could blow up a refinery maybe. Even then, it would be a temporary setback. The system is huge, employing millions of people and enormous amounts of distributed infrastructure. There’s only a couple thousand doctors in the entire country who perform abortions. If they started getting systematically assassinated there’d be an immediate chilling effect. This has already happened in the past, with just a couple well known murders. Some states only have a couple of clinics. In all of California there’s only like 500 clinics. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2015, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-pro-lifers-more-extreme/727456/26 "2015-08-10T20:12:14Z")
Or put it another way: Why would someone who believe abortion is murder make an exception for rape? ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2015, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-pro-lifers-more-extreme/727456/27 "2015-08-10T20:13:35Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Or put it another way: > > Why would someone who believe abortion is murder make an exception for rape? By valuing quality of life, as well as life? ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2015, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-pro-lifers-more-extreme/727456/28 "2015-08-10T20:14:09Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > By valuing quality of life, as well as life? Huh? ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2015, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-pro-lifers-more-extreme/727456/29 "2015-08-10T20:15:49Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Huh? They might believe that, as bad as killing the fetus is, forcing the mother to bring to term her and her rapist’s offspring is worse. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2015, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-pro-lifers-more-extreme/727456/30 "2015-08-10T20:16:12Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > Because, despite how satisfying it is to demonize the people on the opposite side of an argument. most people are reasonable about almost everything. Got it in one. I know a lesbian feminist who is pro-lifers for the same reason she us anti-capital punishment and a total pacifist: she thine killing a human is always wrong. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2015, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-pro-lifers-more-extreme/727456/31 "2015-08-10T20:16:27Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Or put it another way: > > Why would someone who believe abortion is murder make an exception for rape? Yep. It might be horrible to force a woman to carry the child of her rapist to term, but is that horror greater than taking an innocent life? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2015, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-pro-lifers-more-extreme/727456/32 "2015-08-10T20:19:13Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Got it in one. Absolutely not. There is nothing “reasonable” about letting millions of innocent children be killed each year. Was it “reasonable” for good Germans to just let the Nazis kill all the undesirables? Do we not laud the resistance fighters over the “go along to get along” types? > [@](#): > > I know a lesbian feminist who is pro-lifers for the same reason she us anti-capital punishment and a total pacifist: she thine killing a human is always wrong. And good for her. But most pro-life people are not strict pacifist that way. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2015, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-pro-lifers-more-extreme/727456/33 "2015-08-10T20:19:40Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > They might believe that, as bad as killing the fetus is, forcing the mother to bring to term her and her rapist’s offspring is worse. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > Yep. It might be horrible to force a woman to carry the child of her rapist to term, but is that horror greater than taking an innocent life? Right. I mean, maybe the 20% or so who believe abortion is murder and that there should be rape exceptions really are saying rape is worse than murder. But I highly doubt it. I suspect that, instead, they do not consider abortion to be the equivalent of killing a living child. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2015, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-pro-lifers-more-extreme/727456/34 "2015-08-10T20:22:01Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Right. > > I mean, maybe the 20% or so who believe abortion is murder and that there should be rape exceptions really are saying rape is worse than murder. Rape _and_ the bringing to term of their and their rapists’ offspring. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2015, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-pro-lifers-more-extreme/727456/35 "2015-08-10T20:23:21Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Right. > > I mean, maybe the 20% or so who believe abortion is murder and that there should be rape exceptions really are saying rape is worse than murder. But I highly doubt it. I suspect that, instead, they do not consider abortion to be the equivalent of killing a living child. Agreed. And the OP offers other evidence, which I don’t think should be dismissed out of hand as most of those replying to this thread are doing. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2015, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-pro-lifers-more-extreme/727456/36 "2015-08-10T20:24:28Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > Rape _and_ the bringing to term of their and their rapists’ offspring. The abortion exception isn’t preventing rape, that was just shorthand on my part. What you imagine them to be saying is that avoiding bringing to term of their and their rapists’ offspring is worth killing an innocent five-year-old. I very much doubt that any of them would say that. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2015, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-pro-lifers-more-extreme/727456/37 "2015-08-10T20:26:30Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > The abortion exception isn’t preventing rape, that was just shorthand on my part. > > What you imagine them to be saying is that avoiding bringing to term of their and their rapists’ offspring is worth killing an innocent five-year-old. I very much doubt that any of them would say that. Not necessarily. Thinking that killing a fetus is murder doesn’t necessarily mean that they think that murder in all circumstances is equally bad. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2015, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-pro-lifers-more-extreme/727456/38 "2015-08-10T20:30:20Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > Not necessarily. Thinking that killing a fetus is murder doesn’t necessarily mean that they think that murder in all circumstances is equally bad. It is logically possible that this subset of pro-life folks do not believe that killing a 20-week-old fetus is the same as killing one-day-old baby. Lots of pro-life people do believe that, but maybe you’re right that the subset who support rape exceptions are not among them. That said, my vague recollection is that the vast majority of pro-lifers support rape and maternal health exceptions. So I would be surprised if your supposition is true. But you’re absolutely right that we have to be careful since these labels are very broad and actually encompass many different beliefs about abortion. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2015, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-pro-lifers-more-extreme/727456/39 "2015-08-10T20:31:24Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > Not necessarily. Thinking that killing a fetus is murder doesn’t necessarily mean that they think that murder in all circumstances is equally bad. Remember, murder and killing are two different things. Murder is, by definition, never justified. Perhaps a better test for “true believers” is not rape, but incest. Incest (except in cases of rape-by-close relative) does not involve forced sex. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2015, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-pro-lifers-more-extreme/727456/40 "2015-08-10T20:33:48Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Remember, murder and killing are two different things. Murder is, by definition, never justified. But it’s true that we have all kinds of gradations of murder. If you kill a man who you just caught fucking your spouse, we count that as lesser murder than killing an innocent child (which is itself sort of messed up, but that’s a different matter). It is entirely logical to think that killing a fetus is, like, fifth degree murder. I’m just not so sure that’s empirically what’s happening. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-pro-lifers-more-extreme/727456.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-pro-lifers-more-extreme/727456.md?page=3)