# Why aren't there any "miniature" cat breeds? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 18, 2016, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-there-any-miniature-cat-breeds/772295 "2016-11-18T00:02:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2016, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-there-any-miniature-cat-breeds/772295/21 "2016-11-18T20:49:01Z")
… everybody’s German Shepherd is 3/4’s wolf … Just yesterday I had a neighbor swear up-and-down one of my cats was a Maine Coon … now this cat is a little smaller than average and all I could say was “he’s just a mutt” … ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2016, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-there-any-miniature-cat-breeds/772295/22 "2016-11-18T21:19:28Z")
> [@Trancephalic](#): > > [Maine Coon - Wikipedia](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maine_Coon) > > Anecdotally, we had a cat of allegedly Maine Coon descent that didn’t grow much larger than a Guinea pig. Was this cat a girl? Maine Coon females are smaller; on the small side, they’re almost petite. But a male MC can get YUGE. My son’s cat Chompers’ mom was a smallish pure Maine Coon; his father was some anonymous tabby. Chompers is humongous, as are his brothers; his sisters are all petite. They look like Maine Coons to varying degrees. Chompers’ fur doesn’t look very MC-like; he looks like a MC dressed up as brown-and-black shorthair tabby. ---
**Author:** ![Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hilarity_n.suze/32/6223_2.png) [@Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hilarity_N.Suze)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2016, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-there-any-miniature-cat-breeds/772295/23 "2016-11-18T21:55:46Z")
Hm, I had a female Maine coon cat, and she was a big cat. My most favorite MC feature of hers was her very long, very fluffy tail. When she was about 16 she got cancer on the end of her tail and had a couple of inches amputated, and it was STILL a long tail. But no one would ever have called her “almost petite.” Granted a lot of her apparent big size was hair. ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2016, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-there-any-miniature-cat-breeds/772295/24 "2016-11-18T22:13:38Z")
I’ve been poking around Wikipedia and came up with a large Maine Coon is the size of a small bobcat … interesting that the small side of both for the females is about 8 pounds … the cat size my vet calls “very well taken care of” … One of the distinctions of the Maine Coon as a specific cat breed is it’s large size, and it looks like they come in something of a variety of markings … and loooooooong … up to four foot … so if you find yourself with 16 pounds of feline muscle and fitness purring your lap up … you’ve got a Maine Coon … ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2016, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-there-any-miniature-cat-breeds/772295/25 "2016-11-18T22:40:32Z")
> [@Trancephalic](#): > > [Maine Coon - Wikipedia](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maine_Coon) That’s awesome, but not exactly what I was going for. Dogs can be anywhere from 2.5 ounces to 250 pounds. There’s nothing like that wide range in the cat world, or any other species for that matter. Dogs really seem to be a special case. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2016, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-there-any-miniature-cat-breeds/772295/26 "2016-11-18T22:48:49Z")
Which dog breed is 2.5 ounces? ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2016, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-there-any-miniature-cat-breeds/772295/27 "2016-11-18T23:34:53Z")
I guess I was wrong. I saw a show that purported to show the largest and smallest dogs in the world. The bull mastiff was close to 250 lbs, and I swear the teacup chihuahua was under a quarter pound. But this website claims the smallest dog weighs 1.4lbs, which is still a pretty huge range. But I was wrong. Must have misremembered that show. [http://www.petvr.com/index.php/pages/BooBooWorldsSmallestDog.html](http://www.petvr.com/index.php/pages/BooBooWorldsSmallestDog.html) ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2016, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-there-any-miniature-cat-breeds/772295/28 "2016-11-18T23:55:05Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > … I think in general, dogs are a special case. For one thing they’ve been domesticated for far longer than any other animal. And for another, you don’t have toy cattle breeds or giant chickens either. So probably it’s better to ask not “why don’t we have toy/giant cat/cow/pet snake breeds?” but “why are dogs so incredibly varied in size?” Correct. [Dogs are the special case.](http://genetics.thetech.org/original_news/news52) > [@](#): > > Imagine if some adult humans were the size of giants and others were the size of two-year-olds. That’s the weird kind of world that dogs live in. > > People just aren’t that different when it comes to size. Most adults are about the same height – 5 to 6 feet. > > In fact, most species are roughly the same size. Except for dogs. … > > … The best correlation was found near the insulin-like growth factor (IGF) gene. … A breed’s IGF type predicted the average dog size of the breed. Within a breed, the percent of dogs that had the small IGF allele predicted how small that dog breed was. > > So this one gene, IGF, is a major contributor to dog size. … Well that’s the _what_ is different within the species _Canis_ … the why it is for them and not for _Felis_ is really just that domestic dogs have been subjected to much more controlled selective breeding than have cats (for various characteristics including size and attributes related to various functions they serve, as working breeds or as novelty items), in particular over the last several hundreds years. Cats utilitarian function was mouser and the typical housecat size works well for that. Cats have comparitively not been selectively bred to any significant degree because there has been no sustained large market for cats with selective features. Pretty much only dogs have been under such prolonged artificial selection pressure to fill so many different niches as part of human societies. ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2016, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-there-any-miniature-cat-breeds/772295/29 "2016-11-18T23:57:43Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > I sometimes think Maine Coon is the “part Cherokee” of the cat world. Everybody except the purebred purists wants to claim some MC ancestry for their mongrel cat. Great post. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > Which dog breed is 2.5 ounces? My Pit/GSD cross encountered a Teacup Chihuahua puppy once, which I swear was the size of a hamster, and even though it was a warm day, couldn’t stop shaking. My dog kept sniffing around like she was thinking “I _smell_ a dog, but I don’t _see_ a dog.” ---
**Author:** ![Trancephalic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trancephalic/32/380_2.png) [@Trancephalic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trancephalic)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2016, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-there-any-miniature-cat-breeds/772295/30 "2016-11-19T00:03:01Z")
Well, not _that_ special; ants of the same species vary far more wildly in size within a colony. All the more impressive that they’re all sisters. ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2016, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-there-any-miniature-cat-breeds/772295/31 "2016-11-19T05:16:29Z")
> [@Mister\_Rik](#): > > The documentary, _The Lion in your Living Room_ on Netflix is a good watch. Did you mean this movie? I just watched it a couple weeks ago. You are right; it’s very good, and also suitable for somewhat younger viewers because it contains no on-screen violence or profanity. [http://theelephantinthelivingroom.com/](http://theelephantinthelivingroom.com/) ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2016, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-there-any-miniature-cat-breeds/772295/32 "2016-11-19T05:21:37Z")
Anyone remember the story a couple years ago about the male Westie that mated with a female Rottweiler? > **[The unlikely romance that produced a litter of 'Wottie' dogs](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2518016/Tiny-male-Westie-mates-female-Rottweiler-twice-size-create-new-breed.html)** > > Pint-sized Westie Joey (centre) fathered 11 puppies (left), given the name 'Wotties', shortly after moving into the family home of Rottweiler Zara (right). Until I read this story, I didn’t know that the mother rejected her puppies. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2016, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-there-any-miniature-cat-breeds/772295/33 "2016-11-19T05:44:51Z")
**Trancephalic** , caste-based size polymorphism within social insects that are members of the meta-organism of the colony/hive is indeed interesting, but “far more wildly” it aint. Size polymorphism in ants within the colony is [typically something like](http://antsofthecape.blogspot.com/p/ant-catalogue_8.html) 5 mm for minors to 8 mm for majors with a few species having slightly wider ranges. Red driver ants seem to be the outlier with a fourfold size differential (1.5 to 9 mm). The range of size within the species _Canis_ is larger. ---
**Author:** ![Mister\_Rik](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mister_rik/32/491_2.png) [@Mister\_Rik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mister_Rik)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2016, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-there-any-miniature-cat-breeds/772295/34 "2016-11-19T05:45:13Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > My dog kept sniffing around like she was thinking “I _smell_ a dog, but I don’t _see_ a dog.” A comedian I saw years ago had a bit in his routine about tiny dogs. He wrapped up with the statement, “If I can yell loud enough to kill it, it’s NOT A DOG!” > [@nearwildheaven](#): > > Did you mean this movie? I just watched it a couple weeks ago. You are right; it’s very good, and also suitable for somewhat younger viewers because it contains no on-screen violence or profanity. > > [http://theelephantinthelivingroom.com/](http://theelephantinthelivingroom.com/) Nope, different documentary, purely about housecats and their history. ---
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2016, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-there-any-miniature-cat-breeds/772295/35 "2016-11-19T14:20:48Z")
Horses, also, have a wide human-bred variance. Draft horses vs. miniature horses are a pretty big size difference. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2016, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-there-any-miniature-cat-breeds/772295/36 "2016-11-19T20:35:11Z")
Just looked it up. Miniature horses 86 to 97 cm tall at the withers and Clydesdales 163 to 183 cm. Yes, while nowhere near as big of a spread as within domestic dogs a pretty big difference. Visualizing them I am surprised the spread is not more. If anyone is interested [here](http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0039929) is an article about the genetics of height in domestic horse breeds. > [@](#): > > Horse body size varies greatly due to intense selection within each breed. American Miniatures are less than one meter tall at the withers while Shires and Percherons can exceed two meters. The genetic basis for this variation is not known. We hypothesize that the breed population structure of the horse should simplify efforts to identify genes controlling size. In support of this, here we show with genome-wide association scans (GWAS) that genetic variation at just four loci can explain the great majority of horse size variation. Unlike humans, which are naturally reproducing and possess many genetic variants with weak effects on size, we show that horses, like other domestic mammals, carry just a small number of size loci with alleles of large effect. Furthermore, three of our horse size loci contain the LCORL, HMGA2 and ZFAT genes that have previously been found to control human height. The LCORL/NCAPG locus is also implicated in cattle growth and HMGA2 is associated with dog size. … ---
**Author:** ![Sunny\_Daze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunny_daze/32/438_2.png) [@Sunny\_Daze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunny_Daze)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2016, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-there-any-miniature-cat-breeds/772295/37 "2016-11-20T18:07:12Z")
For a little more perspective on horses, I did a little digging. The American Association of Miniature Horses states that minis should be no more than 34" at the base of the mane when grown. [AMHA](http://www.amha.org/docs/default-source/default-document-library/horseforeveryone10EBDFCF0863.pdf?sfvrsn=0). At the other end of the spectrum, we have draft horses. The tallest recorded was a Shire, at 7’2" at the shoulder. The minimum height for draft horses is 6’ at the shoulder. TBH, 6’ is not an uncommon height for any number of horse breeds, including those used for dressage, racing and dressage, so I tend to think that heights over 6’ are closer to accurate for draft horses. Modern ranges for recognized breeds are then something like: 34" to 6 feet. Not too much different from what **DSeid** turned up. I think part of what isn’t captured in that is the overall physiology. A mini is dainty and a draft horse is decidedly NOT. Another species that now has a lot of difference in size is pigs. Consider the teacup pig, darling of, well, someone, and the HOG. That’s a range of a something that weighs under 10 pounds when grown to animals that can weight a 1000 pounds or more. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2016, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-there-any-miniature-cat-breeds/772295/38 "2016-11-20T18:45:51Z")
There is in fact no breed of “teacup pig”. The closest may be the Yucatan Miniature Pig bred for laboratory use and they average 83 kg full grown, not under 10 pounds. The main applied breeding pressure was to select for domestic pigs that grew faster and bigger than their wild stock origins. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2016, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-there-any-miniature-cat-breeds/772295/39 "2016-11-20T19:31:43Z")
> [@Sunny\_Daze](#): > > … > TBH, 6’ is not an uncommon height for any number of horse breeds, including those used for dressage, racing and dressage, so I tend to … “You said dressage twice.” "I \*like _dressage!"_ With apologies to Mel Brooks. ========= - For those who don’t get the joke: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96DQspxu0jg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96DQspxu0jg) ---
**Author:** ![Sunny\_Daze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunny_daze/32/438_2.png) [@Sunny\_Daze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunny_Daze)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2016, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-there-any-miniature-cat-breeds/772295/40 "2016-11-20T20:25:58Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > There is in fact no breed of “teacup pig”. The closest may be the Yucatan Miniature Pig bred for laboratory use and they average 83 kg full grown, not under 10 pounds. > > The main applied breeding pressure was to select for domestic pigs that grew faster and bigger than their wild stock origins. Well, someone thinks there are teacup pigs. Mainly teacup pig breeders. Weights are: 12lbs and up. They are animals bred to be pets. [cite](http://www.teacuppigs.info) > [@LSLGuy](#): > > “You said dressage twice.” > "I \*like _dressage!"_ > > With apologies to Mel Brooks. > > ========= > > - For those who don’t get the joke: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96DQspxu0jg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96DQspxu0jg) :smack: whoops. Yeah, I ride dressage. I meant to list racing, jumping and dressage (you could add stock work, police work and a number of other things). Oh well. One track mind. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-there-any-miniature-cat-breeds/772295.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-there-any-miniature-cat-breeds/772295.md?page=3)