# Why aren't there better non-lethal ways of stunning or restraining people? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 2, 2003, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-there-better-non-lethal-ways-of-stunning-or-restraining-people/216508 "2003-12-02T15:35:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Omphaloskeptic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bcef8e/32.png) [@Omphaloskeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omphaloskeptic)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2003, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-there-better-non-lethal-ways-of-stunning-or-restraining-people/216508/21 "2003-12-02T23:49:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Martin Wolf \*“Move-along” is one thing, forcing a guy **freaking out on PHP** to cease & desist without using a potentially lethal amount of power is something else. I just have to 😃 at the idea of a webmaster who coded ONE TOO MANY server scripts… ---
**Author:** ![DougC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7feea3/32.png) [@DougC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DougC)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2003, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-there-better-non-lethal-ways-of-stunning-or-restraining-people/216508/22 "2003-12-03T00:22:31Z")
> [@](#): > > …Taser technology is the way to go. Too bad most police don’t have the funds to buy these things… - - - Tasers and stun-guns are a scam–an outgrowth of cattle prods, now based almost entirely in salesman bullshit and niche marketing to liability laws. They simply do not disable anyone or any animal intent on attacking, and have not _ever_ done so. A Taser is simply a stun-gun that shoots two shots of two wires, so that hopefully you don’t have to get within arm’s reach of the target (unless you miss twice). As far as the electrical shocking aspect of it goes, Tasers and stun-guns work exactly alike–in that they don’t really disable much of anyone intent on attacking. … These discussions pop up on self-defense/weapon forums all the time, with some people insisting that “good” stun-guns actually do work, and it’s only the cheaper ones that don’t–totally forgetting the fact that two years ago, it was the cheap ones that were the good ones, and they worked great back then. There’s at least one easy test I came up with however: have a pal shoot your left arm with a stun-gun, and then shoot your right arm with a 9mm or .45 pistol, and then decide which arm is more effectively disabled. * * * - By the by, a “move along” is called a **cattle prod**. Tack and feed shops sell them for $50 or so, they use more & larger batteries than any taser or stun-gun does, and they don’t shoot pretty lightning bolts, but if used aggressively, they leave burn marks on human skin. If you insist on playing Buck Rogers with your life, a cattle prod is the weapon to be holding. ~ ---
**Author:** ![PhilAlex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/839c29/32.png) [@PhilAlex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhilAlex)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2003, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-there-better-non-lethal-ways-of-stunning-or-restraining-people/216508/23 "2003-12-03T01:38:50Z")
If you’ve never tried to restrain someone on PCP… well… lucky you. You know those horror movies where the 90 lb nun starts kicking everyone’s butt, and becomes immune to pain? That’s what PCP does to you. I had to help 3 friends subdue a freaked out, on PCP, roomate once. the guy was maybe 150 lbs. It was a nightmare. Finally, a pal got his belt around his legs, cinched it, and the guy was effectively grounded. Said pal also had scratches on his face and his eye almost gouged out. And, yes, the druggie was a “friend” ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2003, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-there-better-non-lethal-ways-of-stunning-or-restraining-people/216508/24 "2003-12-03T02:02:38Z")
See, what I don’t understand is why there’s so much sympathy given to people who _resist arrest_. If they’d just give up we wouldn’t even need to have this discussion. As it stands right now, though, as long as dudes like this resist, people will die. All the stun guns, tasers, whatever won’t change the fact that when you get bum-rushed by a 400 pound man, you either let him beat the snot out of you or you start swinging and you don’t stop until he stops moving. ---
**Author:** ![aeropl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f05b48/32.png) [@aeropl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aeropl)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2003, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-there-better-non-lethal-ways-of-stunning-or-restraining-people/216508/25 "2003-12-03T02:29:32Z")
The military and police have been trying to develop them since the 50’s, but no one single device has become ubiquitous for nonlethal crowd/person control. Here’s an article about the mentioned microwave device and some other failed methods: [http://www.sfbg.com/reality/22.html](http://www.sfbg.com/reality/22.html) Supposedly, one of the most promising things coming is this extremely slippery stuff that _no one_ can walk or drive on. I’ve read a better and more detailed article on it before but this will have to do for now: [http://www.techtv.com/news/culture/story/0,24195,3376885,00.html](http://www.techtv.com/news/culture/story/0,24195,3376885,00.html) It sounds pretty neat. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2003, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-there-better-non-lethal-ways-of-stunning-or-restraining-people/216508/26 "2003-12-03T02:43:45Z")
Get one of those Marlin Perkins dart guns and you could treat them the way we psychiatrically labeled folks get treated, and shoot them up with a massive dose of Haldol or Prolixin. (I can think of lots of legitimate reasons why you wouldn’t want to, but none for why it is therefore still OK to use that crap on us) ---
**Author:** ![owlofcreamcheese](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/97f17d/32.png) [@owlofcreamcheese](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/owlofcreamcheese)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2003, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-there-better-non-lethal-ways-of-stunning-or-restraining-people/216508/27 "2003-12-03T03:00:57Z")
okay, lets assume there is a magic space stunner gun. at 50 yards point and pull the trigger and POOF the person is asleep. assumeing no side effect of any kind… is this a perfect nonleathal weapon? no, your head is 4-6 feet of the ground no matter what you do. if you fall your head is going to fall 6 feet no matter what, and a bash on the head can kill you, no matter what, if you fall on your head, you MIGHT die. thats how it works. ---
**Author:** ![netscape\_6](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/8c91f0/32.png) [@netscape\_6](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/netscape_6)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2003, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-there-better-non-lethal-ways-of-stunning-or-restraining-people/216508/28 "2003-12-03T03:16:40Z")
so any thoughts on the pain dart gun idea i had? ---
**Author:** ![Sublight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@Sublight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sublight)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2003, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-there-better-non-lethal-ways-of-stunning-or-restraining-people/216508/29 "2003-12-03T03:58:35Z")
One problem with using drugs is, as **Martin Wolf** said, people vary, and what will just make me woozy may knock you out competely and cause your 4-year-old to suffer a fatal OD. Last year about this time, Chechen rebels took about 700 people hostage in a Moscow theater. The Russian Security Forces (police or military?) used gas to knock out the hostage takers before storming the theater. They acomplished that goal, but the gas ended up killing over a hundred of the hostages. I don’t think there are many western police forces (and fewer mayors) willing to take those chances. There’s a good reason anesthesiologists have to go through just as much schooling as other doctors. ---
**Author:** ![Phage](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a4c791/32.png) [@Phage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phage)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2003, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-there-better-non-lethal-ways-of-stunning-or-restraining-people/216508/30 "2003-12-03T04:17:16Z")
**netscape 6** , Pain dart gun? **owlofcreamcheese** had a great point, but your pain gun has other problems. What about broken teeth, or bones from muscle contraction? Heart conditions, or bleeding in the brain from raised blood pressure? Emotional trauma?! Any device designed to subdue someone has to stop the body from doing what it is directed to do. Your body often has reasons for doing what it is directed to do, and there are consequences for keeping it from doing that. People die doing pretty much anything, even sleeping, so how can you expect that there will ever be non-lethal methods of subdual? ---
**Author:** ![netscape\_6](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/8c91f0/32.png) [@netscape\_6](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/netscape_6)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2003, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-there-better-non-lethal-ways-of-stunning-or-restraining-people/216508/31 "2003-12-03T05:03:38Z")
in a world where string (i mean come on, string! there are aliens out there laughing at us) can be lethal i don’t expect it to be perfect. however broken teeth, minor brain damage, and trauma would seem better than almost certain death. as for falling well i have fallen down before, i seem to be ok. i rather take a tumble then fall. ---
**Author:** ![netscape\_6](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/8c91f0/32.png) [@netscape\_6](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/netscape_6)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2003, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-there-better-non-lethal-ways-of-stunning-or-restraining-people/216508/32 "2003-12-03T05:14:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by netscape 6 \* > \*\*i rather take a tumble then fall. \*\* :smack: you can bet money that everytime i’ll pick tumble over fall. fall should be get shot. ---
**Author:** ![patchbunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/dc4da7/32.png) [@patchbunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/patchbunny)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2003, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-there-better-non-lethal-ways-of-stunning-or-restraining-people/216508/33 "2003-12-03T05:53:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by netscape 6 \* > \*\*so any thoughts on the pain dart gun idea i had? \*\* People on drugs or crazy as a shit-house rat may not give a damn and come after you anyway. Plus, you have the problem that causing a member a great amounts of pain results in quite painful lawsuits. Plus plus, despite what Hollywood likes to show, drugs take time to work. –Patch ---
**Author:** ![netscape\_6](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/8c91f0/32.png) [@netscape\_6](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/netscape_6)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2003, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-there-better-non-lethal-ways-of-stunning-or-restraining-people/216508/34 "2003-12-03T07:03:46Z")
real simple idea. ever get the wind knocked out of you? incapacitating aint it? now the hard part figuring out how to do it remotely. i have to do some thinking. ---
**Author:** ![Walton\_Firm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/45deac/32.png) [@Walton\_Firm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walton_Firm)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2003, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-there-better-non-lethal-ways-of-stunning-or-restraining-people/216508/35 "2003-12-03T21:04:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Omphaloskeptic \* > \*\*I just have to 😃 at the idea of a webmaster who coded ONE TOO MANY server scripts… \*\* :smack: 😛 The worst thing is that I can’t even blame it on a typo – I actually believed that the name of the drug was the same as the scripting language… ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2003, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-there-better-non-lethal-ways-of-stunning-or-restraining-people/216508/36 "2003-12-04T03:18:26Z")
Incidentally, there was an article in today’s National Journal that DOD’s “resident transformation guru,” VADM Arthur Cebrowski (Ret.), as saying one of the most important technologies that the military must be investing in right now is less-lethal technologies. The article (can’t find it on the web yet) notes that DOD spends about $50 million of a budget of $380 billion on less-lethal weapons. He goes on to say, “What this means is that soldiers at checkpoints have to act in a binary mode, if you will, applying lethal force or accepting intolerable risk. We should be able to do better by our soldiers and provide another, broader choice.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-there-better-non-lethal-ways-of-stunning-or-restraining-people/216508.md?page=1)