# Why aren't women allowed in front-line combat? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [December 31, 2012, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-women-allowed-in-front-line-combat/645710 "2012-12-31T20:59:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2012, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-women-allowed-in-front-line-combat/645710/21 "2012-12-31T22:13:42Z")
> [@raindog](#): > > If you rounded up 1000 men and 1000 women from the general population I would be surprised if 5% of the women had the same physical capabilities as men. Five out of 100. > > In the military I’d be stunned if 1% could perform in highly physical combat situations on a level of the men. > > That’s not sexism. That’s the simple physical differences between men and women. By your own admission, you would deny a job to 1% of a population for no reason other than their gender. If that’s not the textbook definition of sexism, I don’t know what is. ---
**Author:** ![aag3981](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/53a042/32.png) [@aag3981](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aag3981)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2012, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-women-allowed-in-front-line-combat/645710/22 "2012-12-31T22:15:05Z")
> [@alphaboi867](#): > > Sexual assault of male POWs isn’t unheard of, but it’s not nearly as common as it is for female POWs. They are not equally to be raped. This why Israel originally banned women from combat roles after the War of Independence, and why nowdays only women who volunteer for combat roles are assigned them. In addition to the reasons others have given it’s also been claimed that male soldiers under fire would become overcome with rage & impossible to control upon seeing a female comrade killed. Of course the entire concept of a front-line has become meaningless in modern warfare. I bet men are way more likely to be tortured by electrocuting their testicles. The torturers are going to do the most demeaning thing they can. Lady parts are just likely to make it more fun for them. If you want to argue that women likely couldn’t keep up, then you have a point. Denying the ones that are capable the opportunity because something bad might happen to them is stupid and should make men angry. Doesn’t anyone care about the men??? ---
**Author:** ![aag3981](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/53a042/32.png) [@aag3981](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aag3981)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2012, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-women-allowed-in-front-line-combat/645710/23 "2012-12-31T22:17:28Z")
> [@raindog](#): > > If you rounded up 1000 men and 1000 women from the general population I would be surprised if 5% of the women had the same physical capabilities as men. Five out of 100. > > In the military I’d be stunned if 1% could perform in highly physical combat situations on a level of the men. > > That’s not sexism. That’s the simple physical differences between men and women. In my bootcamp platoon we had a varsity football player and a ranked high school wrestler. Most women aren’t raised to be rough. Most don’t have the desire to be. Even if only 1% could keep up with the men, why not allow that 1% serve if they can perform the task. ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2012, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-women-allowed-in-front-line-combat/645710/24 "2012-12-31T22:20:24Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > By your own admission, you would deny a job to 1% of a population for no reason other than their gender. If that’s not the textbook definition of sexism, I don’t know what is. Absolutely. I would absolutely deny the 1%. I also didn’t support the guy who sued Hooters because they wouldn’t let him be a waiter, or the female high school football player who wants to play on the male varsity football squad. I wouldn’t spend millions of dollars, and go through all of the problems entailed with looking for a 1%, needle-in-a-haystack population. Should there be women in the military? Yes. Should they be on “Navy Seal Team 6”? Heck no. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2012, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-women-allowed-in-front-line-combat/645710/25 "2012-12-31T22:22:14Z")
> [@raindog](#): > > If you rounded up 1000 men and 1000 women from the general population I would be surprised if 5% of the women had the same physical capabilities as men. Five out of 100. > > In the military I’d be stunned if 1% could perform in highly physical combat situations on a level of the men. > > That’s not sexism. That’s the simple physical differences between men and women. I’m not sure I agree with your exact numbers, but I’ll concede the general point. But the persons arguing for the inclusion of willing female volunteers in combat roles are, I think, opining that the 1% you claim exist, if they are willing, should be allowed to do so, especially as advancement through the ranks in the armed services is far easier for service members with combat experience. I find the notion of women in combat aesthetically displeasing. But as long as there is no relaxation of standards that would reduce the service as a whole, I cannot say that it’s just, right, or wise to deny willing & capable women combat roles. I still think that the service will be overwhelmingly male for reasons of sexual dimorphism, but the women with the physical and mental toughness to perform in combat should be allowed. ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2012, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-women-allowed-in-front-line-combat/645710/26 "2012-12-31T22:25:16Z")
> [@aag3981](#): > > In my bootcamp platoon we had a varsity football player and a ranked high school wrestler. Most women aren’t raised to be rough. Most don’t have the desire to be. Even if only 1% could keep up with the men, why not allow that 1% serve if they can perform the task. It seems to be SDMB fare to play to the exception, and _rare_ exception at that. The average testosterone laden 18 year old enlisting isn’t coming off the set of “The Big bang Theory.” All of us knew some women at the local bar who could beat some of the men at arm wrestling. And it doesn’t have anything to do with ‘how you were raised.’ men are bigger, and stronger. Thats just the facts. Telling me about some woman wrestler doesn’t change the fact. ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2012, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-women-allowed-in-front-line-combat/645710/27 "2012-12-31T22:31:11Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > I’m not sure I agree with your exact numbers, but I’ll concede the general point. But the persons arguing for the inclusion of willing female volunteers in combat roles are, I think, opining that the 1% you claim exist, if they are willing, should be allowed to do so, especially as advancement through the ranks in the armed services is far easier for service members with combat experience. > > I find the notion of women in combat aesthetically displeasing. But as long as there is no relaxation of standards that would reduce the service as a whole, I cannot say that it’s just, right, or wise to deny willing & capable women combat roles. I still think that the service will be overwhelmingly male for reasons of sexual dimorphism, but the women with the physical and mental toughness to perform in combat should be allowed. I do construction work often. _Without exception_, when some physical work has to be done, it is men that have to do it. Having women around is rare to begin with, but from time to time it is understood----without talking-----that the people most capable to do it, do it. If I’m storming a compound and I need to kick in a door, I want the biggest, strongest person to do it. That will _always_ be a guy. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2012, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-women-allowed-in-front-line-combat/645710/28 "2012-12-31T22:32:52Z")
> [@raindog](#): > > If you rounded up 1000 men and 1000 women from the general population I would be surprised if 5% of the women had the same physical capabilities as men. Five out of 100. > > In the military I’d be stunned if 1% could perform in highly physical combat situations on a level of the men. > > That’s not sexism. That’s the simple physical differences between men and women. This is from memory, but I read a book on the subject entitled “[Weak Link](http://books.google.com/books/about/Weak_link.html?id=n4XfAAAAMAAJ)”. IIRC, the author (who is/was career military) mentioned war game situations where they matched an all-male division, an all-female division, and a division mixed between men and women in simulated combat. The all-male divisions nearly universally finished up first, the mixed divisions second, and the all-female divisions last. There was a ship in the first Gulf War that they called the Love Boat because so many of the female sailors had to be un-deployed, because they got pregnant. As Robert Heinlein mentions, a second-best military is the most expensive luxury on earth. The point - the only point - of fighting a war is to win. Considerations of how the world should be if it were different tend to take a back seat when bombs begin to go off, and you need people to load shells and lead a rifle assault. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2012, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-women-allowed-in-front-line-combat/645710/29 "2012-12-31T22:33:06Z")
> [@raindog](#): > > It seems to be SDMB fare to play to the exception, and _rare_ exception at that. The average testosterone laden 18 year old enlisting isn’t coming off the set of “The Big bang Theory.” > > All of us knew some women at the local bar who could beat some of the men at arm wrestling. And it doesn’t have anything to do with ‘how you were raised.’ men are bigger, and stronger. Thats just the facts. > > Telling me about some woman wrestler doesn’t change the fact. I don’t believe anyone is arguing that, _on average_, men have greater physical strength then women. It’s possible that some persons in this thread may assert that women are as aggressive as men, but I am not one of them. I think the persons who want women to be de jure allowed in infantry combat (rather than our current de facto non-policy policy) are saying that the physically and mentally exceptional women – let’s say it’s 5% of them – who possess the necessary qualities and the desire to exploit them in the military should be allowed the opportunity to do so. ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2012, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-women-allowed-in-front-line-combat/645710/30 "2012-12-31T22:36:41Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > I’m not sure I agree with your exact numbers, but I’ll concede the general point. But the persons arguing for the inclusion of willing female volunteers in combat roles are, I think, opining that the 1% you claim exist, if they are willing, should be allowed to do so, especially as advancement through the ranks in the armed services is far easier for service members with combat experience. > > I find the notion of women in combat aesthetically displeasing. But as long as there is no relaxation of standards that would reduce the service as a whole, I cannot say that it’s just, right, or wise to deny willing & capable women combat roles. I still think that the service will be overwhelmingly male for reasons of sexual dimorphism, but the women with the physical and mental toughness to perform in combat should be allowed. I think there is the law of diminishing returns. If the female population overwhelmingly doesn’t have the requisite strength, why are we pounding round pegs into square holes? The costs and problems are so great, for such a small return (especially since the quotas can be filled with men) there is simply no good reason to do it, save for the feel good inclusive political correct karma that it’s designed for. ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2012, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-women-allowed-in-front-line-combat/645710/31 "2012-12-31T22:39:22Z")
_On average_ I could accept. But men aren’t _on averag_e physically more capable. they are _overwhelmingly_ more capable. (and _overwhelmingly_ doesn’t do justice to the disparity) ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2012, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-women-allowed-in-front-line-combat/645710/32 "2012-12-31T22:42:16Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > This is from memory, but I read a book on the subject entitled “[Weak Link](http://books.google.com/books/about/Weak_link.html?id=n4XfAAAAMAAJ)”. IIRC, the author (who is/was career military) mentioned war game situations where they matched an all-male division, an all-female division, and a division mixed between men and women in simulated combat. The all-male divisions nearly universally finished up first, the mixed divisions second, and the all-female divisions last. > > There was a ship in the first Gulf War that they called the Love Boat because so many of the female sailors had to be un-deployed, because they got pregnant. > > As Robert Heinlein mentions, a second-best military is the most expensive luxury on earth. The point - the only point - of fighting a war is to win. Considerations of how the world should be if it were different tend to take a back seat when bombs begin to go off, and you need people to load shells and lead a rifle assault. > > Regards, > Shodan +1 _Hell, +100_ I remember that book. there were excerpts in the news. And we’re not talking about fairness. We’re talking about\* human lives.\* ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2012, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-women-allowed-in-front-line-combat/645710/33 "2012-12-31T22:48:18Z")
.. > [@](#): > > \*"The Marine Corps is the only service which does not train males and females together in boot camp. > > In the past year, the policy of “Coed Basic Training” has resulted in several scandals in the areas of fraternization and inappropriate sexual conduct in boot camp. > > Additionally, many military experts feel that “Coed Boot Camp” lowers standards for male personnel."\* > [@](#): > > _“President Reagan ended an experiment with co-ed basic training in 1982 after it began five years previously by the Carter administration. In 1994, President Clinton reinstated the program. However, three years later, a string of military sex scandals led to the formation of the Kassebaum-Baker Commission, which recommended that co-ed training be ended in the Army, Navy and Air Force. But the programs still exist today, with the exception of the Marine Corps, and Army OSUT for Combat Arms.”_ ---
**Author:** ![Noone\_Special](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/noone_special/32/2863_2.png) [@Noone\_Special](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Noone_Special)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2012, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-women-allowed-in-front-line-combat/645710/34 "2012-12-31T22:51:47Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > Does the IDF allow women to fight in combat? Yes, to a limited degree: > **[Caracal Battalion](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caracal_Battalion)** > > The 33rd "Caracal" Battalion (Hebrew: גדוד קרקל) is an infantry combat battalion of the Israel Defense Forces, one of the three fully combat units (alongside the 'Lions of Jordan Battalion' and the 'Cheetah Battalion') in the Israeli military's Paran Brigade that are composed of both male and female soldiers. It is named after the caracal, a small cat whose sexes appear the same. As of 2009\[update\], approximately 70% of the battalion was female. > The Caracal Battalion is unique among the borde... One of them [recently earned a Citation](http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/163526#.UOIVKHe3o60)for her part in a battle with terrorists along the Egyptian border. Women can also become fighter pilots / navigators in the IAF (although there aren’t very many of them, either.) ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2012, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-women-allowed-in-front-line-combat/645710/35 "2012-12-31T22:54:49Z")
PMS. Women get too mean to unleash on an enemy. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2012, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-women-allowed-in-front-line-combat/645710/36 "2012-12-31T22:55:57Z")
> [@raindog](#): > > If I’m storming a compound and I need to kick in a door, I want the biggest, strongest person to do it. That will _always_ be a guy. I’m only 5’9"; there are plenty of guys bigger than me. Can I be exempted from combat? ---
**Author:** ![aag3981](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/53a042/32.png) [@aag3981](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aag3981)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2012, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-women-allowed-in-front-line-combat/645710/37 "2012-12-31T22:59:30Z")
> [@raindog](#): > > I think there is the law of diminishing returns. If the female population overwhelmingly doesn’t have the requisite strength, why are we pounding round pegs into square holes? > > The costs and problems are so great, for such a small return (especially since the quotas can be filled with men) there is simply no good reason to do it, save for the feel good inclusive political correct karma that it’s designed for. Again, you are stopping an entire population because of what most supposedly cannot do. Some women fit into those square pegs. Also, there are combat roles that are not as physically demanding. If a woman can do the training, why not allow her to do the job. Not all combat roles are lugging a 150lb pack for miles and hand to hand combat. Other than convenience and sexism, there is no good reason NOT to do it. Of course these women would not take the spots of capable men, but if the performed well enough for those spots, meaning better than some men, they should be allowed. ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2012, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-women-allowed-in-front-line-combat/645710/38 "2012-12-31T23:01:50Z")
> [@Ethilrist](#): > > I’m only 5’9"; there are plenty of guys bigger than me. Can I be exempted from combat? No you can’t. Pick up your gear and fall out soldier. ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2012, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-women-allowed-in-front-line-combat/645710/39 "2012-12-31T23:09:28Z")
> [@aag3981](#): > > Again, you are stopping an entire population because of what most supposedly cannot do. Some women fit into those square pegs. Also, there are combat roles that are not as physically demanding. If a woman can do the training, why not allow her to do the job. Not all combat roles are lugging a 150lb pack for miles and hand to hand combat. Other than convenience and sexism, there is no good reason NOT to do it. > > Of course these women would not take the spots of capable men, but if the performed well enough for those spots, meaning better than some men, they should be allowed. I think there is a valid role for woman, including top management. And there are a lot of women in the theater of battle. I’m ok with that. But front line combat? Nope. It’s not that they _supposedly_ can’t do it. They \*definitely \* can’t. Combat roles aren’t segregated based on strength. Everybody has to be capable. I don’t want some 22 year old killed because his 5’4" 130 pound partner couldn’t help him, just so I can feel good about myself in my living room 10,000 miles away. ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2012, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-women-allowed-in-front-line-combat/645710/40 "2012-12-31T23:21:50Z")
> [@Ethilrist](#): > > I’m only 5’9"; there are plenty of guys bigger than me. Can I be exempted from combat? A quick Google search says the average man is 5’9.2", and woman 5’3.8". You are not just at average height for a man, but taller than most of the women you know, and almost surely stronger than almost all of them. (probably all of them) In boot camp those differences wouldn’t narrow, they would increase. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-women-allowed-in-front-line-combat/645710.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arent-women-allowed-in-front-line-combat/645710.md?page=3)