# Why arming all your citizens is a stupid idea. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 16, 2018, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arming-all-your-citizens-is-a-stupid-idea/808905 "2018-02-16T00:43:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2018, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arming-all-your-citizens-is-a-stupid-idea/808905/141 "2018-02-19T20:10:05Z")
> [@Settimo](#): > > … Like many others concerned about mass shootings and the unhealthy areas around guns in the US, I come from a place of wisdom, human reason, totally willing to hear all sides, and to bear refutation to my own. Really. So what did you think of my bump stocks for suppressors trade? Would you make that deal? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2018, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arming-all-your-citizens-is-a-stupid-idea/808905/142 "2018-02-19T20:10:53Z")
> [@Settimo](#): > > That’s pretty much a definition of arguing in bad faith, and part and parcel of cheap rhetoric. So is flouncing off in a huff when you can’t come up with anything useful to say. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2018, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arming-all-your-citizens-is-a-stupid-idea/808905/143 "2018-02-19T20:12:24Z")
> [@XT](#): > > I’ll give you a zero out of ten and just move on as there is zero of substance in here, just slams…and they aren’t even good slams. As with Elvis, thanks for playing. His “I come from a place of wisdom, human reason” did come across tinged with a pretty heavy dose of arrogance, but I’m not quite as ready to give up on him as I am on **ElvisL1ves** , yet. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2018, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arming-all-your-citizens-is-a-stupid-idea/808905/144 "2018-02-19T20:13:46Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > So is flouncing off in a huff when you can’t come up with anything useful to say. Oh, I’m still here big guy…if any reasonable poster wants to discuss further I’m game. You though? No thanks. And Settimo seems cut from the same clothe. I’m unsure how anyone could read his post and think ‘well, that really addresses the point and so eloquently as well!’ 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2018, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arming-all-your-citizens-is-a-stupid-idea/808905/145 "2018-02-19T20:19:34Z")
If the anti-gun side were able to convince me that they bargain in good faith, here are a couple trades I would offer: 1. Re-open the machine gun registry so that new machine guns can be produced and sold to civilians and we will agree to raise the age of ownership to 21 for all guns. That is to say, that one may not purchase or permanently possess a firearm until age 21. The language will have to be tweaked so that it isn’t a crime for a child to learn to hunt and shoot under the supervision of an adult. 2. Legalize national carry (NYC, Philly, NJ, etc can’t refuse to honor it) and, in exchange, we will agree that the Federal CCW require some agreed upon reasonable amount of training. This will not supersede or replace state level permits. It will simply put those who wish to take the trouble to get it on the same footing as retired cops. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2018, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arming-all-your-citizens-is-a-stupid-idea/808905/146 "2018-02-19T20:41:52Z")
Someone actually posted here, in all apparent seriousness, letting 21 year olds have machine guns. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2018, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arming-all-your-citizens-is-a-stupid-idea/808905/147 "2018-02-19T20:45:23Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Someone actually posted here, in all apparent seriousness, letting 21 year olds have machine guns. Did you know that the only thing stopping most 21-year-olds from purchasing machine guns today is a lack of funds and / or desire? ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2018, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arming-all-your-citizens-is-a-stupid-idea/808905/148 "2018-02-19T20:47:31Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Someone actually posted here, in all apparent seriousness, letting 21 year olds have machine guns. They can have them now, if they have the money. That has always been the case, even before Reagan closed the registry. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2018, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arming-all-your-citizens-is-a-stupid-idea/808905/149 "2018-02-19T20:48:27Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Did you know that the only thing stopping most 21-year-olds from purchasing machine guns today is a lack of funds and / or desire? And here I thought it was because companies aren’t allowed to manufacture them any more? **Scumpup’s** proposal was that new ones be made-Are you for this? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2018, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arming-all-your-citizens-is-a-stupid-idea/808905/150 "2018-02-19T20:48:58Z")
I wish I could see **ElvisL1ves** ’ face right now. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2018, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arming-all-your-citizens-is-a-stupid-idea/808905/151 "2018-02-19T20:49:11Z")
Anti-gun people would do well to actually have a knowledge of the gun laws as they exist already. Then the dialog wouldn’t involve arguing against what they believe the situation to be rather than what the situation is. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2018, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arming-all-your-citizens-is-a-stupid-idea/808905/152 "2018-02-19T20:51:25Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > And here I thought it was because companies aren’t allowed to manufacture them any more? **Scumpup’s** proposal was that new ones be made-Are you for this? The pool of pre-1986 machine guns is still freely bought and sold. Yes, I would like to see new ones available even if there are no other changes to the NFA. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2018, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arming-all-your-citizens-is-a-stupid-idea/808905/153 "2018-02-19T20:51:29Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > And here I thought it was because companies aren’t allowed to manufacture them any more? **Scumpup’s** proposal was that new ones be made-Are you for this? Just to clarify: new ones aren’t currently allowed to be sold to civilians (but still can be manufactured, and are, for sale to law enforcement / military), but there were a bunch in civilian hands prior to the '86 ban, and those still trade hands regularly (and at wildly-inflated prices). You might already know this, but it sounds like **ElvisL1ves** did not, and I imagine a good number of other Dopers were unaware as well. Sure, I’d trade 18-20 year old possession for re-opening the registry. Would you? ETA: beat by Scumpup ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2018, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arming-all-your-citizens-is-a-stupid-idea/808905/154 "2018-02-19T20:54:43Z")
Do you share the goal of reducing murders or don’t you? Because this is hardly the way to do it, by proposing things that will increase it in “exchange” for things that will decrease it, while claiming to be the “side” acting in good faith. If you do want to reduce murders, we can find ways together. If you don’t, then, well, keep doing what you’re doing. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2018, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arming-all-your-citizens-is-a-stupid-idea/808905/155 "2018-02-19T20:55:27Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > The pool of pre-1986 machine guns is still freely bought and sold. …at highly inflated prices because of their rarity. Your proposal would make it even easier to acquire them. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2018, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arming-all-your-citizens-is-a-stupid-idea/808905/156 "2018-02-19T20:56:32Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Do you share the goal of reducing murders or don’t you? Because this is hardly the way to do it, by proposing things that will increase it in “exchange” for things that will decrease it, while claiming to be the “side” acting in good faith. If you do want to reduce murders, we can find ways together. If you don’t, then, well, keep doing what you’re doing. I’m with **XT**. There are other people in this thread who, for a variety of reasons, are better choices with whom to interact. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2018, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arming-all-your-citizens-is-a-stupid-idea/808905/157 "2018-02-19T20:59:55Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Do you share the goal of reducing murders or don’t you? … Sure, but there are some things I won’t accept, even as a means for achieving that end. ---
**Author:** ![Railer13](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/railer13/32/9742_2.png) [@Railer13](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Railer13)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2018, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arming-all-your-citizens-is-a-stupid-idea/808905/158 "2018-02-19T21:01:23Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > 1. Legalize national carry (NYC, Philly, NJ, etc can’t refuse to honor it) and, in exchange, we will agree that the Federal CCW require some agreed upon reasonable amount of training. This will not supersede or replace state level permits. It will simply put those who wish to take the trouble to get it on the same footing as retired cops. I know I’m late to the party, but I’m genuinely curious (and obviously ignorant) of some terminology here… Upthread, in post #118, **HurricaneDitka** listed ‘Nationwide CCW reciprocity’ on his wish list. Now here you are asking to ‘legalize national carry’. I’m assuming that these two terms are not the same thing. Can you explain the difference? If one is implemented, is the other needed? ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2018, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arming-all-your-citizens-is-a-stupid-idea/808905/159 "2018-02-19T21:01:43Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > …at highly inflated prices because of their rarity. Your proposal would make it even easier to acquire them. I said with no other changes to the NFA. Are you aware of all the steps and time involved in buying a machine gun? If not, please do your research. I’m done arguing against people’s imaginary idea of how the present laws work. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2018, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arming-all-your-citizens-is-a-stupid-idea/808905/160 "2018-02-19T21:03:09Z")
> [@Railer13](#): > > I know I’m late to the party, but I’m genuinely curious (and obviously ignorant) of some terminology here… > > Upthread, in post #118, **HurricaneDitka** listed ‘Nationwide CCW reciprocity’ on his wish list. Now here you are asking to ‘legalize national carry’. I’m assuming that these two terms are not the same thing. Can you explain the difference? If one is implemented, is the other needed? He wants all the states to simply recognize each other’s permits. I am fine with that. I am talking about a Federal permit similar to what cops and retired cops presently enjoy. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arming-all-your-citizens-is-a-stupid-idea/808905.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-arming-all-your-citizens-is-a-stupid-idea/808905.md?page=9)