# Why "Attorneys" General, etc? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 14, 2010, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-attorneys-general-etc/557164 "2010-10-14T19:27:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2010, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-attorneys-general-etc/557164/21 "2010-10-14T21:37:11Z")
> [@kferr](#): > > Is this how we get “Grands Prix” ? No, “prix” is the noun there, and it’s the same in the singular and the plural. The whole phrase, “grand prix” or “grands prix”, is following Modern French grammatical rules, where (1) the adjective sometimes does come before the noun, and (2) the adjective matches the noun in number and gender. So it’s odd, but in that case it’s only the adjective with “s” at the end. ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2010, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-attorneys-general-etc/557164/22 "2010-10-14T21:39:01Z")
> [@Zsofia](#): > > Yes … > [@Giles](#): > > No, … In spite of those first words, I think we are generally agreeing 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![AWB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/bb73d2/32.png) [@AWB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AWB)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2010, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-attorneys-general-etc/557164/23 "2010-10-14T23:05:27Z")
> [@SmithCommaJohn](#): > > > [@KlondikeGeoff](#): > > > > General is not a noun? :eek: > > Sometimes it is. Sometimes it isn’t. > > “I’m a general in the Army” = “general” used as a noun > > “I’m a colonel in the Army, and I live in this general area” = “general” used as an adjective. In the army, generals live in private quarters, and privates live in general quarters. ---
**Author:** ![statsman1982](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e79b87/32.png) [@statsman1982](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/statsman1982)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-attorneys-general-etc/557164/24 "2010-10-15T02:18:56Z")
> [@AWB](#): > > > [@SmithCommaJohn](#): > > > > Sometimes it is. Sometimes it isn’t. > > > > “I’m a general in the Army” = “general” used as a noun > > > > “I’m a colonel in the Army, and I live in this general area” = “general” used as an adjective. > > In the army, generals live in private quarters, and privates live in general quarters. And, as they get older, generals usually have problems with their privates. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-attorneys-general-etc/557164/25 "2010-10-15T02:31:36Z")
I believe all of the general officer ranks were originally postpositive adjectives: captain general lieutenant general sergeant major general Over time, the “captain” got dropped, as did the “sergeant” from major general (but this is why a lieutenant general outranks a major general, even though a major outranks a lieutenant). Brigadier general/brigadier varies in different times and places from being the lowest ranking general officer to being a fancy colonel, sort of the land forces equivalent of “commodore”. Some armies also have a rank of “colonel general”, which is generally a high-ranking general officer rank–in the German rank system, just below a field marshal. ---
**Author:** ![NetTrekker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nettrekker/32/2909_2.png) [@NetTrekker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NetTrekker)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-attorneys-general-etc/557164/26 "2010-10-15T02:38:43Z")
> [@pravnik](#): > > “Attorney General” is an example of a postpositive adjective. Postpositive adjectives follow the nouns they modify in accordance with Romance syntax rather than Germanic syntax that English normally follows. They’re usually found in English as a remnant of Norman French influence during the Middle Ages, especially right after the Norman Conquest. > > French legal phrases, syntax and all, were adopted into English unchanged, even though in English adjectives almost always precede the nouns they modify. A few examples of legal phrases with postpositive adjectives: accounts payable, accounts receiveable, attorney general, condition precedent, condition subsequent, easement appurtenant, fee simple, president-elect, court martial, queen regnant, heir apparent, body politic, sum total, notary public. > > (Source: Bryan E. Garner, A Dictionary of Modern Legal Usage 424-425 (1987).) Well said…I learned some things therein. Now can I play too? How about “date certain” and “Sunday next” .. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-attorneys-general-etc/557164/27 "2010-10-15T04:19:51Z")
> [@KlondikeGeoff](#): > > > [@Zsofia](#): > > > > Because Attorney is the noun, as is President and Governor. > > > > ETA - see also, mothers-in-law. > > General is not a noun? :eek: > > ETA: Whoops, I wrote this before I saw the other replies that explained it. Sorry think of it as Several Attorneys in General, general i snot a rank, so it is not a noun it is general as in the definition [here](http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/general). Notice that rank [military] is the last and least definition =) ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-attorneys-general-etc/557164/28 "2010-10-15T04:51:48Z")
> [@Keeve](#): > > > [@Aswan](#): > > > > in baseball, why is it not R’sBI? > > Once we refer to it by the initials, it loses that part of the grammar. Ditto for MREs or POWs. Some plural abbreviations omit the s entirely, because they’re never used in the singular: MPG, RPM. “RBI” is plural: Runs Batted In, RBI. There’s no need to say “RBIs.” ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-attorneys-general-etc/557164/29 "2010-10-15T05:10:59Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > “RBI” is plural: Runs Batted In, RBI. There’s no need to say “RBIs.” Ah, but RBIs is the plural of “Run Batted In.” 😉 Actually, “RBI” is treated as a word, and hence [pluralized in the normal way.](http://wsu.edu/~brians/errors/rbi.html) See at the bottom of [this page](http://www.baseball-almanac.com/recbooks/rb_rbi1.shtml) from the Baseball Almanac for the standard use of “RBIs.” ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-attorneys-general-etc/557164/30 "2010-10-15T05:29:27Z")
I know people use it that way, doesn’t make it right or a good idea. It’s usually more conversational contexts that do that, and indeed I’ve seen people read aloud from printed sources using an unmodified abbreviation, and they _add_ the pluralization to say it. Plenty of statistical discussion uses “RBI” in all instances. Similarly, “PA,” “HR,” etc. See several places on [this page](http://books.google.com/books?id=wC4DAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA16&lpg=PA16#v=onepage&q&f=false) from the _Baseball Digest_ for the standard use of “RBI.” ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-attorneys-general-etc/557164/31 "2010-10-15T05:31:56Z")
And here’s a bit of trivia: the Surgeon General of the United States is actually a Vice Admiral. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 8:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-attorneys-general-etc/557164/32 "2010-10-15T08:23:56Z")
> [@robert\_andrews](#): > > > [@SmithCommaJohn](#): > > > > “Attorney” is the noun, “General” is an adjective, in this case. > > > > We could call attorneys general “general attorneys” (the attorney tasked with representing the legal interests of a sovereign entity in all matters) and it would mean the same thing. > > > > But we wouldn’t call them “generals attorneys,” any more than you would see a group of shaggy dogs and say “look at those shaggies dogs” > > However, you would in Spanish. In Spanish adjectives get assigned the number and gender of the noun they modify (though not all adjectives have separate gender forms/spellings) Abogados generales (attorneys generals), with attorney as the noun) would be a literal translation, though I don’t know what Spanish speaking countries actually use that as a title. Those Attorneys General work for the state, don’t they? So we don’t call them abogados, but fiscales. In the case of Spain, they’re not [attorney][adjective] but [attorney][of XYZ court], but if they were qualified with an adjective then yes, the adjective would show the plural (and gender, if relevant). In translations, your Attorneys General are usually called “fiscal general del estado” or, if the translator wasn’t awake, “abogado general del estado”. Federal ones are called “fiscal federal” and DAs are called “fiscal del distrito” or plain “fiscal”. “The DA’s office” is “la oficina del fiscal”. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 8:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-attorneys-general-etc/557164/33 "2010-10-15T08:42:45Z")
I’ve always wondered about Matthew Hopkins, the Witchfinder General. Is that use of General a noun or an adjective? What would the plural be? ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 9:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-attorneys-general-etc/557164/34 "2010-10-15T09:50:16Z")
From what I see in his Wikipedia page, it’s not that he was “a military boss who hunted witches” but “a witchhunter who performed his job all over the place”. Therefore, the “general” is the adjective and the plural would be Witchfinders General. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-attorneys-general-etc/557164/35 "2010-10-15T13:46:04Z")
It is of course an inconsistency that in referring to “Attorneys General,” English follows the French form for the position of the adjective, but does not follow the French form of pluralizing the adjective as well as the noun. ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-attorneys-general-etc/557164/36 "2010-10-15T14:02:21Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > It is of course an inconsistency that in referring to “Attorneys General,” English follows the French form for the position of the adjective, but does not follow the French form of pluralizing the adjective as well as the noun. However, “attorney general” did not come into English from Modern French, but from Anglo-Norman French, the language spoken and written in England for 200 or so years after 1066. I’m not sure that Anglo-Norman French added the “s” to adjectives with plural nouns, partly because it was influenced by several Germanic languages, including Middle English. Indeed, the words “Norman” and “Normandy” themselves are derived from Germanic origins – they were “North Men”, who had invaded northern France from Scandinavia, before William, Duke of Normandy, invaded England in 1066. ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-attorneys-general-etc/557164/37 "2010-10-15T14:13:09Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > > [@spark240](#): > > > > “RBI” is plural: Runs Batted In, RBI. There’s no need to say “RBIs.” > > Ah, but RBIs is the plural of “Run Batted In.” 😉 > > Actually, “RBI” is treated as a word, and hence [pluralized in the normal way.](http://wsu.edu/~brians/errors/rbi.html) > > See at the bottom of [this page](http://www.baseball-almanac.com/recbooks/rb_rbi1.shtml) from the Baseball Almanac for the standard use of “RBIs.” And what sportscaster has never said “Ribbies”? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-attorneys-general-etc/557164/38 "2010-10-15T14:18:40Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > It is of course an inconsistency that in referring to “Attorneys General,” English follows the French form for the position of the adjective, but does not follow the French form of pluralizing the adjective as well as the noun. Not really. Postpositional adjectives are a legacy from “legal English”, i.e., the specialized vocabulary of the early Common Law courts, and they in turn drew heavily on Norman French, whose rules for adjective agreement were nowhere near as firmly ensconced as modern French’s. In any case, when a word, phrase, or usage is brought fully into English, it begins to obey English rules (including indeclinable adjectives) rather than those of its birth language (retention of the original plural being an occasional exception). ---
**Author:** ![cjepson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a9adbd/32.png) [@cjepson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cjepson)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-attorneys-general-etc/557164/39 "2010-10-15T14:31:35Z")
Just wanted to say I’m always glad to see a thread like this in Questions General. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-attorneys-general-etc/557164/40 "2010-10-15T14:35:07Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > I know people use it that way, doesn’t make it right or a good idea. The point is that the usage is not incorrect. It’s OK to treat an abbreviation as a word and pluralize it normally. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-attorneys-general-etc/557164.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-attorneys-general-etc/557164.md?page=3)