# Why "Attorneys" General, etc? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 14, 2010, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-attorneys-general-etc/557164 "2010-10-14T19:27:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-attorneys-general-etc/557164/41 "2010-10-15T15:10:15Z")
Wasn’t Norman French the guy who played Mr. Roper? Anyway, I’m not sure we’re disagreeing; I accept that the inconsistency goes way back. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-attorneys-general-etc/557164/42 "2010-10-15T16:00:56Z")
> [@CookingWithGas](#): > > And what sportscaster has never said “Ribbies”? 🙂 Sure. And they can call home runs “dingers” or “jacks,” too, conversationally. “HR” still stands for “home runs” as readily as it does “home run.” > [@Colibri](#): > > The point is that the [“RBIs”] usage is not incorrect. It’s OK to treat an abbreviation as a word and pluralize it normally. It’s not criminal. But I maintain that it’s nonsensical, and therefore inappropriate in formal writing, to pluralize a _numerical_ abbreviation. Would you write that you were driving at 65 MPHs? ---
**Author:** ![Saltire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saltire/32/553_2.png) [@Saltire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saltire)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-attorneys-general-etc/557164/43 "2010-10-15T16:17:14Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > > [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > > > It is of course an inconsistency that in referring to “Attorneys General,” English follows the French form for the position of the adjective, but does not follow the French form of pluralizing the adjective as well as the noun. > > Not really. Postpositional adjectives are a legacy from “legal English”, i.e., the specialized vocabulary of the early Common Law courts, and they in turn drew heavily on Norman French, whose rules for adjective agreement were nowhere near as firmly ensconced as modern French’s. In any case, when a word, phrase, or usage is brought fully into English, it begins to obey English rules (including indeclinable adjectives) rather than those of its birth language (retention of the original plural being an occasional exception). I can think of one postpositional adjective that doesn’t come from that source. Instead, it’s from Gaelic. I’ll spoiler it so everyone can try to guess. “Galore.” As in, “The Attorneys General had law degrees galore.” ---
**Author:** ![Kevbo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e47774/32.png) [@Kevbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kevbo)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-attorneys-general-etc/557164/44 "2010-10-15T16:17:18Z")
> [@Giles](#): > > But it’s fine to go to an upscale restaurant and ask for some filets mignon. (Or even filets mignons if you want to be closer to the French.) I always order flaming yawn, but they never hear it. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-attorneys-general-etc/557164/45 "2010-10-15T16:28:03Z")
I have enough trouble ordering a panino. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-attorneys-general-etc/557164/46 "2010-10-15T18:34:23Z")
The title Solicitor General (the top appellate lawyer for the U.S. government) follows the same model. An aside: I hate the tradition of referring to AG and the SG on second reference simply as “General” (heard it a bit in the Elena Kagan hearings this summer). It’s a bit of almost faux-military verbiage that just… irritates me. > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > And here’s a bit of trivia: the Surgeon General of the United States is actually a Vice Admiral. True. The Master speaks: [Why does the U.S. surgeon general wear a uniform? - The Straight Dope](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1037/why-does-the-u-s-surgeon-general-wear-a-uniform) ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-attorneys-general-etc/557164/47 "2010-10-15T18:36:16Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > It’s not criminal. But I maintain that it’s nonsensical, and therefore inappropriate in formal writing, to pluralize a _numerical_ abbreviation. The Chicago Manual of Style (15th Edition) disagrees with you: > [@](#): > > 7.15 Letters, abbreviations, and numerals. Capital letters used as words, **abbreviations that contain no interior periods,** and numerals used as nouns form the plural by adding s. No qualification on whether the abbreviation represents a count noun or not. As in examples given above, you would say “15 POWs,” not “15 POW,” and “100 MREs,” not “100 MRE.” > [@](#): > > Would you write that you were driving at 65 MPHs? My inclination would be to write 65 MPH, but because it’s a rate and thus a continuous variable. However, according to Chicago Style 65 MPHs would be correct. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-attorneys-general-etc/557164/48 "2010-10-15T18:38:27Z")
> [@SmithCommaJohn](#): > > > [@KlondikeGeoff](#): > > > > General is not a noun? :eek: > > Sometimes it is. Sometimes it isn’t. > > “I’m a general in the Army” = “general” used as a noun This originates in an adjectival use. > [@friedo](#): > > Note that your army general is really just an abbreviated way of saying “general officer.” No, it’s an abbreviation of “captain general.” > [@spark240](#): > > I have enough trouble ordering a panino. Has a graffiti artist ever just made one graffito? ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-attorneys-general-etc/557164/49 "2010-10-15T18:50:51Z")
> [@Zsofia](#): > > ETA - see also, mothers-in-law. Surely one of those is more than enough? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Mk\_VII](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Mk\_VII](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mk_VII)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-attorneys-general-etc/557164/50 "2010-10-15T19:18:53Z")
We also have Lords Lieutenant, though not Sergeants Major for some reason. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-attorneys-general-etc/557164/51 "2010-10-15T20:20:13Z")
Note that in countries with QE2 as their monarch, for the whole country she is represented by the Governor General, while for its political subdivisions she is represented by Lieutenant Governors. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-attorneys-general-etc/557164/52 "2010-10-15T20:32:01Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > Has a graffiti artist ever just made one graffito? Probably as often as someone eats one _spaghetto_. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-attorneys-general-etc/557164/53 "2010-10-15T20:48:59Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > > [@acsenray](#): > > > > Has a graffiti artist ever just made one graffito? > > Probably as often as someone eats one _spaghetto_. Someone might, however, eat one raviolo 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-attorneys-general-etc/557164/54 "2010-10-15T21:06:40Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > > [@Colibri](#): > > > > Probably as often as someone eats one _spaghetto_. > > Someone might, however, eat one raviolo 🙂 Or one zucchinus? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-attorneys-general-etc/557164/55 "2010-10-15T21:06:45Z")
The Surgeon General of the United States is not a Vice Admiral; his rank is the equivalent (same pay grade). [url=]Here ( **PDF** ) is the official PHS blurb on ranks: [QUOTE=Page 32 of The Commissioned Officer’s Handbook] The PHS Act establishes the formal designations of grade within the commissioned corps. However, it is appropriate to use the equivalent Navy ranks orally when referring to Corps officers. This also applies to most documents (abbreviations optional). The PHS system is used for documents having legal signifigance. [/quote] The actual names of the grades are listed, along with the Navy equivalents, on Page 33 of said manual. Of special note is this comment in that table: > [@](#): > > [sup]a[/sup] The proper titles and abbreviations of the Assistant Secretary for Health, Surgeon General, and Deputy Surgeon General are always those of the Public Health Service. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-attorneys-general-etc/557164/56 "2010-10-15T21:08:21Z")
Monty, your link doesn’t work. ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-attorneys-general-etc/557164/57 "2010-10-15T21:24:49Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > Note that in countries with QE2 as their monarch, for the whole country she is represented by the Governor General, while for its political subdivisions she is represented by Lieutenant Governors. Not quite. There are only two Commonwealth countries with political subdivisions having viceroys as their heads of state: Australia and Canada. In the States of Australia, HM is represented by Governors; in the Provinces of Canada; HM is represented by Lieutenant Governors (Lieutenants-gouverneurs in French). ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-attorneys-general-etc/557164/58 "2010-10-15T21:31:19Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > > [@Polycarp](#): > > > > Someone might, however, eat one raviolo 🙂 > > Or one zucchinus? It’s Italian, not Latin: it would be “uno zucchino”. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-attorneys-general-etc/557164/59 "2010-10-15T21:33:32Z")
Thanks, **acsenray**. [Here](http://dcp.psc.gov/PDF_docs/CCPM_P62.pdf) is the correct **PDF** link. Furthermore, we USN Sailors are often reffered to as _Squids_\*. That doesn’t mean we really are squids. \*Except for me. You can call me _Calamari_. I’m a Monterey boy. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-attorneys-general-etc/557164/60 "2010-10-15T21:46:48Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > My inclination would be to write 65 MPH, but because it’s a rate and thus a continuous variable. However, according to Chicago Style 65 MPHs would be correct. There’s _gotta_ be an exception for that in the Chicago Manual of Style. I can’t imagine that style book advocating MPHs. I’ve never seen such a usage in print, ever. Anyhow, I agree that RBIs is fine, and MPHs is weird, and it does have something to do with MPH being a rate, although I can’t quite put my finger on how to best explain the difference. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-attorneys-general-etc/557164.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-attorneys-general-etc/557164.md?page=4)