# Why Beijing but not München? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 9, 2004, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-beijing-but-not-munchen/273921 "2004-11-09T23:35:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Gotterfunken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/58956e/32.png) [@Gotterfunken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gotterfunken)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2004, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-beijing-but-not-munchen/273921/41 "2004-11-14T22:13:23Z")
> [@Really Not All That Bright](#): > > I always thought Fiorentina was Florence… Like **matt\_mcl** points out, “Fiorentina” is simply the adjectival form of “Firenze,” which was originally “Florentia” in Latin. [Fiorentina](http://www.acffiorentina.it/) _is_ the name of Florence’s football/soccer team, the full name of which is the Assocazione Calcio\* Fiorentina (usually abbreviated as “AC Fiorentina” or simply “Fiorentina”)–which means the “Florentine Football Association,” hence the use of the adjectival form. \*“Calcio” being the distinctly Italian term for soccer/football. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2004, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-beijing-but-not-munchen/273921/42 "2004-11-14T22:22:36Z")
> [@Excalibre](#): > > Don’t think that’s true. They recently invented a more modern romanization to replace Wade-Giles, but while it’s similar to pinyin, it’s not identical. I’m sure it’s heavily based on pinyin, but the Taiwanese of course have to make sure it’s quite clear that they don’t support anything the PRC has ever done, so they can’t use pinyin. Thanks, I get that aspiration backwards a lot. I don’t have time, but do a google search and I’m pretty sure you’ll see Taiwan does indeed now use pinyin. I didn’t believe it at first when someone on these boards pointed it out, but that’s what google found for me about a year ago. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2004, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-beijing-but-not-munchen/273921/43 "2004-11-14T23:11:03Z")
> [@Shrinking Violet](#): > > Nope - I’ve been repeating it too, and I can’t see the difference either (and I’m from the same place as you **Gorillaman**!). > > Surely a soft “j” would be the “zh” sound in Dr Zhivago? OK, so you’ve brought up a fourth different pronunciation of j…dammit… Anyway, I still maintain that ‘Beijing’ with a quais-CH J feels strange to a monolingual English speaker. ---
**Author:** ![barbitu8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@barbitu8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barbitu8)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2004, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-beijing-but-not-munchen/273921/44 "2004-11-14T23:34:13Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > No idea what most of this means (but hey, you’re still stuck on showjumping 😉 )…nonetheless I’m glad that even the people who like to correct us may not be correct. [Refer to this.](http://www.campusprogram.com/reference/en/wikipedia/a/af/affricate_consonant.html) Immediately after WWII, the pronunciation of _Hiroshima_ had the accent on the third syllable. However, for many years now the accent has been on the second syllable. Somebody once told me that the confusion is that Japanese don’t really accent syllables in their words. Is this true? ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-beijing-but-not-munchen/273921/45 "2004-11-15T00:41:52Z")
> [@barbitu8](#): > > [Refer to this.](http://www.campusprogram.com/reference/en/wikipedia/a/af/affricate_consonant.html) > > Immediately after WWII, the pronunciation of _Hiroshima_ had the accent on the third syllable. However, for many years now the accent has been on the second syllable. Somebody once told me that the confusion is that Japanese don’t really accent syllables in their words. Is this true? Someone who speaks Japanese will no doubt be in shortly with the specifics, but I’ll start by saying that Japanese uses pitch accent, not stress accent. Pitch accent means each syllable is essentially the same volume and lasts for the same length (though in Japanese they’re called _morae_ (sing. mora) and “n” at the end of a syllable counts as a mora for these purposes). In English, or other stress accent languages, the stressed syllable is louder and longer than other syllables, and it changes the rhythm of the word. In Japanese, each mora is the same length, but some are high and some are low. I don’t remember the rules for figuring it out, so someone else will have to chime in and explain the stress on Hiroshima. But essentially, yeah, the way an English word’s rhythm is changed my moving the stress around doesn’t really exist in Japanese. > [@GorillaMan](#): > > Try dropping the K from blackjack - the J changes from being close to ‘ch’, to more like ‘dg’. A more obvious example of how we change sounds according to context is “The owl and the pussycat.” Try saying “Thuh owl and thee pussycat” - the two different sounds for ‘the’ are swapped, making it sound strange and feel awkward. I’m telling you, I don’t do that. If it’s after a “k” sound, or after a glottal stop (which I instinctively insert when I try to say “bla–jack” the voicing starts a little later, so it’s sorta more “chj” than just “j”, but the difference is subtle. (In SAMPA, that would be /tS3/ rather than /d3/ - but the difference is quite subtle.) I don’t use “zh” (/3/) as an allophone of “j” (/d3/) ever in my speech, as far as I can tell. And I’m absolutely one-hundred percent positive that the “Beizhing” pronunciation is not due to normal allophonic variation. There are no other words where we substitute a “zh” for a “j” because it’s in intervocalic position. This is some widespread tendency to make “Beijing” sound more foreign, and it’s probably perpetuated by the media. (Granted, I’d say it’s the norm, so it’s not wrong _per se_ - especially as, like I mentioned earlier, English speakers aren’t going to pronounce “bei3 jing1” correctly no matter how we try.) I don’t think “thuh/thee” is allophonic variation either. Someone correct me if I’m wrong here, but this is basically the same as “a/an”, except spelling doesn’t reflect the change in pronunciation. The word has two alternate pronunciations depending on context, and it’s not the result of a systematic shift that “uh” (/@/, the schwa sound) undergoes. ---
**Author:** ![ntcrawler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/34f0e0/32.png) [@ntcrawler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ntcrawler)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-beijing-but-not-munchen/273921/46 "2004-11-16T16:11:49Z")
Oh, but that’s nothing! There are much more extreme examples of this. For example, the country of Hungary, in the native tongue is known as - get ready for this - Magyarorszag!! For reference, in Polish it’s called “We,gry”. Come on! I mean that’s not even close! How does this happen! Why can’t people refer to someome’s country by its native, proper name? What’s the reason for the changes anyways? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Algernon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a183cd/32.png) [@Algernon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algernon)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-beijing-but-not-munchen/273921/47 "2004-11-16T16:18:27Z")
> [@Colophon](#): > > My local curry house does not yet feature “Chicken Chennai” on its menu, though. But they have “Chicken Madras”? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-beijing-but-not-munchen/273921/48 "2004-11-16T17:49:18Z")
> [@Hemlock](#): > > IMO… It’s a sign of low self-esteem and inferiority complex to insist that foreigners pronounce/write your country’s placenames your way. China, India and Burma all have anti-Western, anti-Colonial, nationalist chips on their shoulders, and getting us to rearrange words in our own language like Peking, Bombay or Rangoon makes them feel good. It’s a way of self-assertion. I recall seeing a compilation of old letters to the _Times_ of London. One writer harrumphed over an earlier wave of name-shifts, rhetorically asking if he should start referring to Iranian cats and Thai cats. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-beijing-but-not-munchen/273921/49 "2004-11-16T19:36:30Z")
> [@ntcrawler](#): > > For example, the country of Hungary, in the native tongue is known as - get ready for this - Magyarorszag!! > > …What’s the reason for the changes anyways? The word ‘Hungary’ predates the Hungarian nation: > [@](#): > > The proper name for the largest ethnic group in Hungary is Magyar. The word is a derivative of Megyeri, supposedly the name of one of the original ten Magyar tribes. Magyar refers specifically to both the language and the ethnic group. The words Hungary and Hungarian are derivatives of a Slavicized form of the Turkic words on ogur, meaning “ten arrows,” which may have referred to the number of Magyar tribes. [http://countrystudies.us/hungary/49.htm](http://countrystudies.us/hungary/49.htm) ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-beijing-but-not-munchen/273921/50 "2004-11-16T19:48:43Z")
> [@Steve MB](#): > > I recall seeing a compilation of old letters to the _Times_ of London. One writer harrumphed over an earlier wave of name-shifts, rhetorically asking if he should start referring to Iranian cats and Thai cats. Let’s not forget Ceylon, Abyssinia, the Voltaic Republic, Belorussia, … ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-beijing-but-not-munchen/273921/51 "2004-11-16T22:54:15Z")
> [@](#): > > I like prefer the name “Hellas” too - if not for anything else, at least it sounds nicer and there’s a sort of historical ring to it, that “Greece” hasn’t. Out of the frying pan, into the fire. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Sternvogel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc79bd/32.png) [@Sternvogel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sternvogel)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 7:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-beijing-but-not-munchen/273921/52 "2004-11-17T07:08:02Z")
> [@barbitu8](#): > > Immediately after WWII, the pronunciation of _Hiroshima_ had the accent on the third syllable. However, for many years now the accent has been on the second syllable. Somebody once told me that the confusion is that Japanese don’t really accent syllables in their words. Is this true? According to [this page,](http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:3TGfpLvGQPMJ:otrsite.com/articles/artwb002.html++%2B+%22Hiroshima%22+%2B+%22pronunciation%22&hl=en&ie=UTF-8) it was a case of misinformation and subsequent correction. The author was a radio announcer when the first atomic bomb was dropped on Japan. As he says: > [@](#): > > We were instructed to pronounce the city “HEE rhoh SHEE mah.” Two weeks later the pronunciation changed to “hee RAW shuh muh,” with the accent on the second syllable. Eventually it turned out that the pronunciation experts had been right the first time. I vaguely remember an episode of a TV program (I believe it was _To Tell the Truth_, as I seem to recall Garry Moore being the host) that featured a veteran of the Pacific Theater. Said veteran talked of “HiroSHEEma” being a beautiful city just before the bombing, and of “present-day HiROHshima” still bearing visible scars of the devastation. The host explained that the pre-bombing pronunciation had changed in order to emphasize the enormity of the impact of the debut of nuclear weaponry in combat. If true, this would be somewhat analogous to the transition of Kenya from British colony (KEEN-ya) to independent nation (KEN-ya). I’ve heard that the impetus for this was the fact that Jomo Kenyatta, the first president of the republic, pronounced his surname ken-YAHT-a. At any rate, it’s wise to avoid the old pronunciation when [visiting Kenya](http://www.africa.com/dmap/Kenya/Do's+and+Don'ts) or talking to a Kenyan. ---
**Author:** ![barbitu8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@barbitu8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barbitu8)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-beijing-but-not-munchen/273921/53 "2004-11-17T15:54:42Z")
> [@Sternvogel](#): > > If true, this would be somewhat analogous to the transition of Kenya from British colony (KEEN-ya) to independent nation (KEN-ya). I’ve heard that the impetus for this was the fact that Jomo Kenyatta, the first president of the republic, pronounced his surname ken-YAHT-a. At any rate, it’s wise to avoid the old pronunciation when [visiting Kenya](http://www.africa.com/dmap/Kenya/Do's+and+Don'ts) or talking to a Kenyan. I took a photo safari in Kenya and Tanzania around 1974 and was kept in Tanzania for a while during a period when the border between Kenya and Tanzania was temporarily closed. (We had to be airlifted out.) Anyhow, we were told the same thing, that since Kenyatta was in power, the pronunciation was changed to agree with his surname. Since the time he left power, I’ve heard the pronunciation with a long _e_ again. So I’ve since then pronounced it that way. ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-beijing-but-not-munchen/273921/54 "2004-11-17T15:56:01Z")
(to the tune of Maresy Dotes…) _Mao Zedong lives in Beijing And not in Kampuchea Kobble is how it’s said, not KaBOOL_ ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-beijing-but-not-munchen/273921/55 "2004-11-17T16:24:38Z")
To get back to the OP, there have been threads about this over the years (the search engine is working too slowly for me to try it right now). What I recall from those threads regarding “why do foreigners call it something different?” include: - the infamous Cecil response where he cites “Germany” vs. “Deustchland” vs. “Allemagne” as essentially one tribe’s old way of saying “us”, or, “The Tribe” vs. other folks referring to that same group as “The Others,” “The Enemy,” etc… - The “Rome” vs. “Roma” dilemma - where a foreign reference is close-but-not-quite, there were a few forces thought to be at work: \> different language skills, vowel sounds, etc., so spelling and pronunciation are varied to account for this. \> political/colonial precedent - what a group in power referred to it as vs. the indigenous peoples (IP’s) - if the IP’s have since come to power, the name may evolve, but other countries may lag behind or be motivated for some reason not to update. \> a new language assumes power - e.g., in China with Mandarin vs. Cantonese, say - may lead to updated places names that sound similar. Again, other countries either may lag behind or be motivated for some reason not to update. \> “It was a bigger world back then” - in other words, back in the old days, we didn’t have immediate communications from other countries. We were more likely to have communications from our media sources, filtered and biased and potentially inaccurate in pronunciation or understanding of which options are most preferable. With today’s instantaneous global communications, these differences become much more clearly evident and also easier to rectify. \> Vowel shifts and such - language evolves. A placename may have been translated to English, say, so that it’s pronunciation aligns with the native sounds. However, over hundreds of years, both English and the native tongue are likely to evolve and the pronunciation of the placename can change, as can the pronunciation of the English word that had been used to approximate the earlier pronunciation - thereby doubling the “gap” between the native speakers’ and an English-speakers’ words for the same place. And once a specific spelling is adopted, it becomes very difficult to update that, even if it no longer is spelled like or sounds like a native speakers’ word for the place - it is, at least, internally consistent with the references to the same place in that same tongue. I am sure there are other reasons, but these are the ones that come to mind from previous discussions. Hope this helps, WordMan ---
**Author:** ![ouryL](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ouryl/32/6067_2.png) [@ouryL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ouryL)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-beijing-but-not-munchen/273921/56 "2004-11-17T17:03:07Z")
> [@barbitu8](#): > > [Refer to this.](http://www.campusprogram.com/reference/en/wikipedia/a/af/affricate_consonant.html) > > Immediately after WWII, the pronunciation of _Hiroshima_ had the accent on the third syllable. However, for many years now the accent has been on the second syllable. Somebody once told me that the confusion is that Japanese don’t really accent syllables in their words. Is this true? I found this on ABOUT: > [@ABOUT:Japan](#): > > [ABOUT: Japan](http://japanese.about.com/blqow25.htm) > > Japanese has a pitch accent or musical accent. You might think Japanese is a monotone language since it is quite different from the stress accent in English, other European languages and some Asian languages. The Japanese often struggle with putting the accent on the syllables when learning English. This is because they have a different accent system. > > A stress accent pronounces the syllable louder and holds it longer. English speakers speed up between accented syllables unconsciously. Pitch accent is based on the two relative pitch levels of high and low. Each syllable is pronounced with equal length. Each word has its own determined pitch and only one accent summit. Japanese sentences are made up like a melody with rising and falling pitches. Unlike English’s uneven rhythm, Japanese sounds like a steadily flowing stream. > > Japan has many regional dialects (hogen). The different dialects have different accents. However, there are no communication problems among people of different dialects since everybody understands standard Japanese (hyoujungo, a dialect spoken in Tokyo). In most cases, accentuation doesn’t make a difference in the meaning of the words. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-beijing-but-not-munchen/273921.md?page=2)