# Why believe in "a" God? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 29, 2005, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-believe-in-a-god/323967 "2005-09-29T02:32:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Crotalus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crotalus/32/41_2.png) [@Crotalus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crotalus)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2005, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-believe-in-a-god/323967/41 "2005-09-29T14:33:18Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > How about to thine own self be true? In my own journey I’ve come to the conclusion that it’s very importent to be true to yourself and what’s honestly going on within you. In that sense I appreciate what **Anaamika** said about atheism not being a choice. Certainly whatever we believe isn’t based on what seems to offer the most emotional benifits. It requires a committment to the truth as we percieve it. In that regard belief or non belief may be a matter of personal integrity. **cosmodan** , I think you’ve said something profound and useful here. I believe that you’ve described exactly what happens to people when they attempt to settle for themselves the question of what to believe. It certainly describes my journey from childhood Catholicism to atheism to the faith in Jesus I now have. I don’t know why the answer to the internal question changed over time, but it did. The changes in my professed beliefs were the result of honestly recognizing what I believed inside. ---
**Author:** ![vetbridge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b5e925/32.png) [@vetbridge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vetbridge)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2005, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-believe-in-a-god/323967/42 "2005-09-29T14:59:38Z")
> [@furt](#): > > Otherwise, we have people doing silly things like claiming that “ **Latro** rapes kittens” and saying that it’s up to you to prove it wrong. As a veterinarian who has seen several incidents of presumed sexual abuse of animals, let me point out how unlikely this is. If by “rape” you mean penile penetration, keep in mind that the feline vagina is tiny. It is a perfect fit for a tom’s penis, however the housecat’s penis is a truly tiny organ. Even the tiniest human penis would be unable to penetrate a queen’s (feline cat) vagina. Dogs, sheep, and potbelly pigs are another story. ☹ /hijack. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2005, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-believe-in-a-god/323967/43 "2005-09-29T15:38:30Z")
> [@Spatial Rift 47](#): > > I promised myself I wouldn’t respond to this, but then I read **lekatt** ’s post. And since **Leaffan** appears to have hauled to and abandoned thread … > > Let’s start with suicide. This guy named Emile Durkheim wrote a well known book titled Suicide. It’s a rate comparison of suicide among different groups, including Catholics, Protestants, and Jews. Now, he published this in 1897, so the inequality I’m about to cite from it may be out of date, but he found that Jews had the lowest rate, Protestants the highest rate, and Catholics in the middle. So it seems obvious to me that religion itself, even ones based on the same saviour, do not guarantee the same level of happiness. The choice of religion matters. What Durkheim found was that as something called solidarity went up in a group, the suicide rate went down. Jewish communities are very, very close-knit, Catholics still close-knit but somewhat less so, and Protestants less still. Guess what solidarity is. Yup … the acceptance of society. The feeling that you belong. Religion is not the only institution capable of creating intense solidarity. Look at armed forces veterans who served together - there’s a reason they call that Brotherhood. For that matter, look at fraternities and sororities. The examples are nigh unto endless. The problem with your post is that you compared religion to religion, while I was comparing religion to non-religion. > [@](#): > > According to a recent study published in The American Journal of Psychiatry religious affiliation is associated with significantly lower levels of suicide compared to religiously unaffiliated people, atheists and agnostics. Source: Kanita Dervic, Maria A. Oquendo, Michael F. Grunebaum, Steve Ellis, Ainsley K. Burke, and J. John Mann. “Religious Affiliation and Suicide Attempt” (161:2303-2308, December 2004). > [http://www.adherents.com/misc/religion\_suicide.html](http://www.adherents.com/misc/religion_suicide.html) ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2005, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-believe-in-a-god/323967/44 "2005-09-29T16:11:20Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > I started to answer this, and then realized it was \*\*\*lekatt \* \*\* I was answering. But I’ll do so anyway, for others. > > The OP is over-the-top in his statements, and doesn’t seem to realize that atheists don’t and shouldn’t “convert” or even try to. But \*\*lekatt’s \*\* statements are even more ridiculous. > > I never \*chose \* to be atheist, **lekatt**. Over the years my belief waned more and more as I studied religious writings. I read several holy books of several religions, and they all seemed blind and obtuse to me. > > I can’t force belief anymore than you can force disbelief. That’s just the way it works. Nothing in religion has any appeal to me. Believing in a higher power when that higher power has done nothing for me, and the belief of my family in one has actually harmed me - that’s counter-intuitive to me. It was noble of you to sacrifice for others. Well, first off, we choose everything. Even if we decide not to chose (agnostic) that is a choice. There is no way we can ever avoid choosing. Choices are what life is all about. I traveled a similar path. After being turned-off by church-going, I read books on religion until I understood religion fairly well. I could see (as you) no reason to believe so I became an agnostic. I guess I would have remained an agnostic if not for my near death experience. After that I read books on spiritual subjects. I came to understand the teachings of Jesus as sound. They each have a reason and a desired result. I do realize that all the teachings attributed to Jesus may or may not actually be His. I do not worship Jesus or God. There is no need to do so. Now, it won’t benefit me much whether you are atheist or believer, but it can benefit you a great deal. It is true that you can’t really force yourself to believe something. That would be dishonest. But you could research spirituality, which is far different than religion. Sure you will read a lot of far-out things, right along with much very good advice. If you are serious you will read until you are satisfied you know what spiritual people are all about. There is a great benefit in believing in God, and the afterlife. The best thing is it costs nothing. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2005, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-believe-in-a-god/323967/45 "2005-09-29T16:42:58Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > There is a great benefit in believing in God, and the afterlife. For some… > [@lekatt](#): > > The best thing is it costs nothing. Except for… YOUR ETERNAL SOUL!!! … MWAHAHAHA!!! 😃 I know many roads lead to Rome but don’t you think there is something suspiciously contrived about find god _after_ a near death experience? Not that you are the first or last… just wondering… ---
**Author:** ![Spatial\_Rift\_47](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a8b319/32.png) [@Spatial\_Rift\_47](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spatial_Rift_47)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2005, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-believe-in-a-god/323967/46 "2005-09-29T16:54:13Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > The problem with your post is that you compared religion to religion, while I was comparing religion to non-religion. Did you actually finish reading my post? Let’s see what those last few sentences have to say: > [@Spatial Rift 47](#): > > Religion is not the only institution capable of creating intense solidarity. Look at armed forces veterans who served together - there’s a reason they call that Brotherhood. For that matter, look at fraternities and sororities. The examples are nigh unto endless. Sounds like religion v. non-religion to me. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2005, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-believe-in-a-god/323967/47 "2005-09-29T17:00:52Z")
> [@Spatial Rift 47](#): > > Sounds like religion v. non-religion to me. Not really. Not exactly a clean sample. We don’t know what proportion of people in a given sorority/fraternity/war vet club, etc… are religiously observant. Furthermore, it may be their religious affiliation that keeps them from swan diving off the Verezano Narrows bridge and not their Rotary Club membership card. ---
**Author:** ![sciurophobic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cab0a1/32.png) [@sciurophobic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sciurophobic)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2005, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-believe-in-a-god/323967/48 "2005-09-29T17:09:08Z")
From the title, I thought the OP was going to be arguing in favor of polytheism. ---
**Author:** ![Lilairen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8491ac/32.png) [@Lilairen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lilairen)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2005, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-believe-in-a-god/323967/49 "2005-09-29T17:18:23Z")
> [@sciurophobic](#): > > From the title, I thought the OP was going to be arguing in favor of polytheism. It would have been a nice change, wouldn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Spatial\_Rift\_47](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a8b319/32.png) [@Spatial\_Rift\_47](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spatial_Rift_47)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2005, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-believe-in-a-god/323967/50 "2005-09-29T17:52:00Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Not really. Not exactly a clean sample. > > We don’t know what proportion of people in a given sorority/fraternity/war vet club, etc… are religiously observant. Furthermore, it may be their religious affiliation that keeps them from swan diving off the Verezano Narrows bridge and not their Rotary Club membership card. Okay, let’s try a different example. College students. Second leading cause of death is suicide, and the majority of those occur during the sophomore year. Why? Because that’s when some students realize that they’re not doing so well after all. Many students go through this, I know I did. You get to college and life is grand, and for the first year you’re doing just fine managing the introductory courses and making new friends, etc. And then you get to the next level of courses, and you realize that you have to radically change the way you do things, because the old way just doesn’t cut the mustard anymore. Some students, when they reach this point, hit bottom harder than others. They may feel they won’t succeed, they’re sure to fail out. Some just drop out at this point. But some have higher pressure on them to succeed, either from their parents, or from themselves as they watch their friends get As. Suddenly they’re the odd man out. Which sounds suspiciously like … not belonging. There’s a tremendous feeling of no longer fitting in at college. And those are the ones that commit suicide. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2005, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-believe-in-a-god/323967/51 "2005-09-29T17:52:14Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > Well, first off, we choose everything. Even if we decide not to chose (agnostic) that is a choice. There is no way we can ever avoid choosing. Choices are what life is all about. Hardly. We can choose how we act on beliefs, but we cannot choose what beliefs we have. When I was a kid I believed in God because everyone else seemed to (though I now suspect my grandfather did not). I did the whole Hebrew School bit, I even went to more services than I had to. I never had any negative experiences with Judaism. But it became very clear to me when I started reading Biblical commentary, and history, that it was all wrong, and when I actually read the Bible all the way through I could no longer believe. I could choose to pretend I’m religious, but I can’t choose to actually be religious. > [@](#): > > The best thing is it costs nothing. Except your integrity if you truly don’t believe. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2005, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-believe-in-a-god/323967/52 "2005-09-29T18:07:18Z")
> [@Spatial Rift 47](#): > > Okay, let’s try a different example. College students. \ > Suddenly they’re the odd man out. Which sounds suspiciously like … not belonging. There’s a tremendous feeling of no longer fitting in at college. And those are the ones that commit suicide. I’m not sure what side you are aguing now… 😕 And college students are no cleaner a sample than veterans or rotarians. I thought you were trying to convince people that theist are more/less likely to commit suicide as atheists. Or are you trying to make the argument that they are equally likely? Sorry… you’ve confused me. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2005, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-believe-in-a-god/323967/53 "2005-09-29T18:17:21Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > For some… > > Except for… YOUR ETERNAL SOUL!!! … MWAHAHAHA!!! 😃 > I know many roads lead to Rome but don’t you think there is something suspiciously contrived about find god _after_ a near death experience? Not that you are the first or last… just wondering… Nothing contrived. In a near death experience one dies, while dead they meet God in the form of light, or some being, or in different appearances. When they come back to life they believe in God. Only one person that I know of still is not sure, and I know of hundreds of them. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2005, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-believe-in-a-god/323967/54 "2005-09-29T18:23:06Z")
> [@Spatial Rift 47](#): > > Did you actually finish reading my post? Let’s see what those last few sentences have to say: > > Sounds like religion v. non-religion to me. I read the last part, but didn’t see any relevance, you are trying to say groups with strong ties and not religion causes this. Sorry, not so, the military has a very high suicide rate. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2005, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-believe-in-a-god/323967/55 "2005-09-29T18:31:35Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Hardly. We can choose how we act on beliefs, but we cannot choose what beliefs we have. When I was a kid I believed in God because everyone else seemed to (though I now suspect my grandfather did not). I did the whole Hebrew School bit, I even went to more services than I had to. I never had any negative experiences with Judaism. But it became very clear to me when I started reading Biblical commentary, and history, that it was all wrong, and when I actually read the Bible all the way through I could no longer believe. I could choose to pretend I’m religious, but I can’t choose to actually be religious. > > Except your integrity if you truly don’t believe. When I read the Bible I too understood much of what I was taught in sunday school was false. But like most any book, the Bible has some bad advice and some good advice. Don’t throw away God because you don’t like the preacher. Learn to separate the Bible, and religion from God. Many are just plain lost here. They can’t see God separate from religion, but in truth He is. That’s why I sometimes ask people to define the God they would want. What do you think? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2005, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-believe-in-a-god/323967/56 "2005-09-29T18:42:34Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > Nothing contrived. In a near death experience one dies, while dead they meet God in the form of light, or some being, or in different appearances. When they come back to life they believe in God. Only one person that I know of still is not sure, and I know of hundreds of them. Errr…no. No one dies and comes back; that’s why it’s called a _near_ death experience. Besides, you have no proof that the being of light _some_ people say they see isn’t a hallucination or the Devil or an evil alien like that Voyager episode. “You _will_ come into my matrix; and you will nourish me for a long, long time” > [@lekatt](#): > > Learn to separate the Bible, and religion from God. Many are just plain lost here. They can’t see God separate from religion, but in truth He is. That’s why I sometimes ask people to define the God they would want. What do you think? Any belief in or about a god is by nature religious. Also, if there is a God, he is what he is; defining him the way you want him to be won’t make him so. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2005, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-believe-in-a-god/323967/57 "2005-09-29T18:55:14Z")
> [@Der Trihs](#): > > Errr…no. No one dies and comes back; that’s why it’s called a _near_ death experience. Besides, you have no proof that the being of light _some_ people say they see isn’t a hallucination or the Devil or an evil alien like that Voyager episode. “You _will_ come into my matrix; and you will nourish me for a long, long time” > > Any belief in or about a god is by nature religious. Also, if there is a God, he is what he is; defining him the way you want him to be won’t make him so. Only thing I can say to you is read up on the things you want to post on. Near death experiences are really dead experiences. They are brought back to life by doctors or come back on their own. Read about it. In other posts you say man made God up. Is that not defining God. Clarify what you believe. So for those who believe God was made up by man. I say define your own God, then we will see what the majority want in a God. You might be surprise to find how close it comes to reality. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2005, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-believe-in-a-god/323967/58 "2005-09-29T19:08:52Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > Only thing I can say to you is read up on the things you want to post on. > > Near death experiences are really dead experiences. They are brought back to life by doctors or come back on their own. Read about it. No, death is irreversable. If someone can be brought back, they were never dead. > [@lekatt](#): > > In other posts you say man made God up. Is that not defining God. Clarify what you believe. If God does not exist, I can define him however I like; there is no reality to contradict me. You are the one who claims he exists; if he does, he is what is is and you can’t choose what he is like. > [@lekatt](#): > > So for those who believe God was made up by man. > > I say define your own God, then we will see what the majority want in a God. > You might be surprise to find how close it comes to reality. Reality is not determined by majority vote. Also, there is no evidence _at all_ that God exists, so there is no way to compare peoples private definitions to a “real” god. ---
**Author:** ![Spatial\_Rift\_47](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a8b319/32.png) [@Spatial\_Rift\_47](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spatial_Rift_47)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2005, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-believe-in-a-god/323967/59 "2005-09-29T19:11:19Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > I’m not sure what side you are aguing now… 😕 > > And college students are no cleaner a sample than veterans or rotarians. > > I thought you were trying to convince people that theist are more/less likely to commit suicide as atheists. Or are you trying to make the argument that they are equally likely? > > Sorry… you’ve confused me. 🙂 Okay. Let me try to clarify my position, thus: Religion, by which I mean the promise of a divine or otherwise supernatural set of behavioral dictums and/or afterlife, has no inherent advantage in making life better for humans. Whether those promises are true or not is irrelevant, it’s the group dynamic that makes it work, or doesn’t. Therefore, groups based around things other than the divine and the supernatural can (not that they always do, just that they can) fulfill the same function. In reality, many people use both. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2005, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-believe-in-a-god/323967/60 "2005-09-29T19:11:56Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > **lekatt** , you’re a doofus. My entire post was tongue in cheek, as the word “/deadpan” should have alerted you. The next time you need to indicate that a poster has whoooshed himself in **GD** , simply indicate the whooosh without the namecalling. Thanks [/Moderator Mode] [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-believe-in-a-god/323967.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-believe-in-a-god/323967.md?page=4)