A pyramid has an objectively definable shape; an object can be tested to see if it qualifies.
People interact with fictional/imaginary things all the time; that gives them significance. They are not real in the way I am real, but they are based on real things; the information/patterns in the brains/books/movies they are based on.
Just because mysticism has provided answers doesn’t mean they are the right answers. Just because someone is satisfied doesn’t mean they are right. It’s full range will never be explored, because it is simply a pretentious way of making things up. Since mysticism is unrestricted by facts, it’s only limits are the imagination.
I agree with Lib’s definition of a God that gives us our heart’s desire. When I see a description of God such as yours, it seems like you are lamenting a God who doesn’t force your hand, that because God allows you to hurt yourself and others who allow you to hurt them, that somehow this impugns God.
What about the idea that God actually needs your worship, and you need God to exist? That both you and God must live in Hell if you turn from God, not because God is willing hell for you, but because suffering is the experience of the lack of God’s presence.
As far as the monotheistic God that brooks no other system in opposition to its own. I don’t think this is so much by decree as by truth, it is evidence of the singularity, and that Gods statements are taken as commandments because God speaks with such authority. Perhaps God’s commandments are simply statements of what is true. The Monotheistic God doesn’t want one worshipping other gods because the idea that there ARE other gods is a falsehood. The idea of individual Gods takes only aspects into account, such as Artemis being Wisdom, Mercury being Communication and so forth, that none of the individual Gods in a pantheon can represent the whole. So a monotheistic God would be the entire Pantheon acting in a unified manner.
To me death is asymptotic, it is a never ending process. I do not believe in death per se, but more a constant lessening of consciousness without ever actually reaching zero, kind of like a Nuclear Half-Life.
Expecting God to make one’s decision for them is a denial of one of the greatest gifts we have received, that of free-will, the ability to take part in creation, to achieve Godhood ourselves, so that their can be multiplicity within the singularity.
As far as I can see “not worshipping other gods” implies there are other gods to worship. Otherwise it would have been stated as “there are no other gods” (which is, as I understand, the position of the muslim god).
The position of monotheism has evolved over time from when Akhenaten declared that Aten, (the Sun) was the only God about 100 years before the time of Moses, to more recently with the existance of Islam. Hinduism has been sort of monotheist for quite a while, with it’s multiple names for Shiva. (Or whatever Hindu God you want to believe is the penultimate manifestation)
Thousands of years of history, millions of prehistory.
I exist quite well without any gods. The absence of God is a comfort, not a source of suffering. Supernatural power-mad critters are not something I want to meet.
As far as I can see “not worshipping other gods” implies there are other gods to worship. Otherwise it would have been stated as “there are no other gods” (which is, as I understand, the position of the muslim god).
The position of monotheism has evolved over time from when Akhenaten declared that Aten, (the Sun) was the only God about 100 years before the time of Moses, to more recently with the existance of Islam. Hinduism has been sort of monotheist for quite a while, with it’s multiple names for Shiva. (Or whatever Hindu God you want to believe is the penultimate manifestation)
I don’t think you understand the concept of worship. It’s not like bowing before a King, it’s about having a relationship with your creator. You’ve got too many laden judgements upon the word “worship”.
sigh As I said in my first response, it is not an issue if we go to heaven after death, or blackness. We do die, by the commonly accepted definition (pining for the fjords, etc.) and we don’t need pain.
It’s a bit late now, but I rather doubt anyone’s heart desire was to be drowned by a tsunami. One chooses to jump off the Golden Gate Bridge (ignoring depression and other factors which might limit actual choice) but not to drown after trying to save oneself by hanging onto a tree. Are you claiming the victims of the tsunami were responsible for their own deaths? That’s pretty damned heartless.
God needs my worship? Not much of a god. Which particular brand of worship does he need? As for me needing God, I’ve done pretty well without him for well over 30 years.
Now about hell, why not let those who qualify into heaven, and extinguish the consciousness of those who don’t? There is always a better solution than eternal torment.
I’m alway amused by those who believe in a god limited in capability to justify various theological tenets. If a god exists, he might choose to make people suffer, but he doesn’t have to. That seems pretty obvious.
Pain is just a form of sensation. A warning that what we are doing to our bodies is probably not in our best interests.
Why should I believe that death is inevitable? I’ve heard stories of immortals though I couldn’t say if I ever met one, because they didn’t self-identify.
Yup, that’s the essence of free-will. I do not believe in victims, people choose their fates. The victims of the Tsunamis will be reincarnated.
It’s sort of a symbiotic relationship. I would argue you’ve done well enough pretending to be without God for 30 years.
I don’t believe in an eternal hell in any way other than the fact that without physical reference points time is kind of meaningless.
I believe in Free Will as I stated above. People choose to suffer. Of course if God created us, then he created us to do what we would do, but as I said, I don’t think suffering is ever permanent, suffering only occurs in a state of unconsciousness, where we fear what we are going through because we do not understand it, and resist a metamorphosis because we are in a state of denial, and holding on to a previous identity.
You know the answer to that. But it means that fairly recently (say, the last 1000 years in europe) people who died, could be retrieved, and we had the time for, have been buried. If you have any exceptions to the statement that everybody dies, pleace give us some evidence to the contrary, because the evidence that that statement is correct is overwhelming.
Actually there is absolutely zero evidence that everybody dies. There is much evidence that A LOT or MOST people die. But as for EVERYONE dying, there is no evidence whatsoever, you are making an assumption that everyone dies.
Remember, I’m on the side of faith. You guys are on the side of ‘reality’ ‘rigor’ and ‘proof’. You’re really dropping the ball here in this debate. You’re expecting more rigor from me than you are willing to accept from yourself.
This is the essence of my disrespect for atheism. It’s a faith based belief system. Agnosticism is skeptical, atheism is dogmatic. You all made the statement that “Everybody dies”, but have yet to show any proof. The burden of proof is on the affirmative. The only responsibility I have debate-wise is showing that you have no proof for your assertion.
Sp we’re imagining the god you would prefer but not eternal life? Let’s imagine that goes hand in hand with this god. Then physical death is incredibly brief and as I said, just a thrill ride in an amusement park, or something like a scary dream that you wake from.
That means you’re still looking at god as a parent who has a responsibility to spare us from unpleasent brief experiences. If he doesn’t he’s neglectful and mean. What if we’re grownups acting like children. What would a parent do then?
Dad, the other kids are picking on me make em stop.
Geez son, you’re 35 years old. What do you want me to do?
Also imagine, as we imagine a god, that we are of the same stuff. eternal spirit.
The trials of one lifetime, or even several aren’t that serious anymore. It’s kids working out how to get along on the playground as they slowly mature.
This is what I find interesting about what atheists find wrong with God. They imagine god the eternal being as treating time and the physical world as if god saw it as importent and final as we do. Why?
Look. Everybody I know of is either less than 125 years old or dead. The overall consensus is that 140 or less is about the maximum age for a human. All you have to do is to point to a single person who’s older than, say 200 years old, and I might consider it. Is that so much to ask?
Remember the prodigal son? He chose to leave his father and strike out on his own. Were his problems and suffereing his fathers fault or just the consequences of his own choices? I don’t think god wants to punish us or wants us to suffer needlessly, but we do have to face the consequences of our own choices.