I never denied the suffering of others, I merely offered my perspective on it. It is my belief that those who had faith in God had a certain sort of peace when the hurricane came through as they knew it was not the end for them, whereas those who did not know this suffered immensely for it was the end of everything they had as far as they could see.
The Human condition is a never-ending drama, we are one collective consciousness that exists in all things, of which our experience is a part. As for Jesus being God, of course he was God, as are you, as am I.
Scott plaid: It is rational for you to say that the evidence is overwhelming for the non-existence of God, and that based upon the evidence you do not believe in God. On the other hand, it is not rational to tell another who’s experience tells them otherwise that they are irrational for believing in a God. You were presented with different evidence from the evidence that I was presented with. One of us is right and one of us is wrong, or more likely, we are not sharing our definitions, and both of us is correct and choosing different words to describe it. That is what I find irrational about atheism. It is this constant attempt to prove rationality that is completely irrational. To me, I feel God in my connection to the world around me, I feel that I am a thought moving aroudn in a great consciousness, I place my will into a larger pool, and then a consensus is reached, and from that we determine the action of the universe. I don’t see how one can say that only particular parts of the universe are consciuos. In my mind either all of it is, or none of it is. The very fact that we are having this conversation is proof to me that one “God exists”, because we are discussing this at all, and two we are conscious. What I find irrational about the atheist argument is that it narrows the definition of God in ways that make it easy to disprove. In my opinion the narrow Gods atheists are constantly disproving are inaccurate representations of God, and thus disprove nothing. I feel that most people having these arguments have given little to no consideration to the mystic tradition yet are arguing vehemently about something for which they have no education. They don’t even know what other people mean by the word “god” yet they argue vociferously against it.
Voyager: Tsunamis are not “evil” they are amoral. Good and Evil are relative terms that can only be applied to the individual and the individuals attempt to preserve itself. Evil can be most easily applied as that which is not beneficial to the individual. A Tsunami is merely a process within the corpus of the Earth. People do and behave as they will, and they bring upon themselves that which happens to them. For instance, if society had been different in many ways, fewer people would have died in New Orleans. A number of things could have been done to prevent it, like not building a city in marshland in a delta in a hurricane corridor, or fixing the levees, or evacuating people, or responding more quickly or many other things. Most of the carnage in these cases is caused less by the damage of the event, and more by the ineffectiveness of humanity to cope with it.
People constantly concern themselves with the Christianization of the Government. However, if our Government were more in touch with Christian Charity, then we wouldn’t have our national guard stealing oil from other countries, we wouldn’t have poor neighborhoods being ignored, and we wouldn’t have Halliburton winning no-bid contracts to rebuild the neighborhoods that were destroyed. In fact the best thing that has occurred is the sense of charity that America has displayed on the individual levels. It is the individuals who went down there to help, who sent aid, who helped organize relief benefits in the aftermath that are truly the salvation of the people in New Orleans. Charity is one of the core virtues of Christianity, and it has been displayed quite well by the American people. America while a secular country of many beliefs has at its core a value system based upon Christian values. In my opinion if people who claim to be Christians truly were acting like Christians then this country wouldn’t be nearly as corrupt as it is, and we’d all be living with abundance.
Tsunamis and Hurricanes happen, people die, and they suffer, but that doesn’t make me anymore cruel because I don’t suddenly drop my faith in God every time someone suffers or dies. To me it’s tragic when people do not see their interconnection with all other living things. I truly believe that is the source of all suffering, and the ability to see that interconnection is what we call “Love” and that is what I call “God”, yet for some reason you are able to twist this into seeming heartless and cruel.
Pain and pleasure are subjective interpretations of the sensory input our nerves transmit to our brains. That’s why a lot of people derive pleasure from electric shocks, spankings and genital mutilation. Suffering is completely subjective.
If this country actually WERE christian rather than the perversion we see today, people in New Orleans would have walked away from their homes knowing that the rest of their civilization would have their backs when it came time to rebuild, and wouldn’t have decided to tough it out in the path of a Hurricane out of fear that what little they have would be stripped from them. They would have had nothing to fear from loss of physical property. There wouldn’t have been sheriffs of neighbouring counties turning people back at gunpoint when they tried to WALK OUT of New Orleans. None of the TRUE tragedy would have happened. The people who suffered and caused suffering here are the godless ones. I am not cruel for believing in God and having faith. It is those who do not have faith, and feel the need to hold onto a tiny little bit of property through some insane fear of loss that are the cause of such suffering.
And I am of the opinion that when people truely step into the Grace of God, and they know what I know, that property is replaceable, that people WILL help you when you are in need, then we will see a decrease in suffering. We are all one, as long as any of us suffers, all of us suffers. It is this that is the reason I care whether or not others believe in God. That is the essence of faith. Faith is trust, it is trust in yourself, it is trust in your society, but it is not a blind trust, it is the trust that comes with having one’s eyes opened so that they can see the gifts of the world presented to them rather than taking what is given to them without any respect or reverence for the blessings they have received.
God is not a tyrant sitting on a throne somewhere torturing you for his capricious amusement. God is a sentient force that permeates us all, that knows that the bounds of time and space are eternal, who knows that all moments in time exist simultaneously, that if you ever existed at all, you always have and always will. Time and Space measure scale and scope, not permanence and impermanence.
Should my body give out and fall to the Earth to decompose, it will nourish the worms and the flowers and the bees, and the cows, and the humans and the birds and the sharks and everything else that is alive, this is no horrible fate, this is a beautiful thing. This is not a fate that is my first choice for myself, but if it becomes my fate, it is not so horrible.
I’d imagine that if I can let go of my fear when I am lifted off the ground by that hurricane that it would probably be quite exhilirating. As I have already experienced eternity in a moment.
We measure time in terms of celestial events, how can you not consider these events as pieces of a consciousness?
Erek