I respectfully disagree, betenoir. I have never seen such a well-reasoned and compelling proof of the non-existence of God and the futility of religion. I’ll be sure to pass it on to the folks at church on Sunday, and I’ll copy in the Archbishop of Canterbury, the Pope, and as many senior religious figures of all faiths as I can Google between now and the weekend. Mark my words, religion will be a dead letter by the end of 2005.
/deadpan
Yes, but none of them have shown up in this thread, have they?
You’ll notice that I haven’t said anything about my own religious beliefs or lack thereof, so I don’t know what “same level of respect” is even meant to be a comparison with.
Leaffan’s attitudes towards religious belief are perfectly clear – he doesn’t need you to hold his coat for him. How natural his disdain may be is beside the point; if he wants to mock, he is of course free to do so, within the rules of this forum, and the board. However, he is not free to do so while claiming he wants a respectful debate without being called on his hypocrisy.
Well, as has been pointed out several times by now, it’s the OP’s burden to make a cogent case for his position. Of course, it would help if he were able to make a coherent statement of his position to begin with.
My inclination is to believe that someone who opens a discussion by saying “people who disagree with me are stupid” wants shouting match, not a reasoned discussion.
I’m an atheist, so I can’t give you many insights here - these are just my outsider observations:
1 Many people don’t agree. I’d say it’s very likely true, but there’s no way to prove god does or doesn’t exist. Wether man “invented” him isn’t even relevant.
3 Many christians believe the bible was directly inspired by God, and therefore more than just the work of man. Again, there’s no way to (dis)prove that.
5 I think a lot of christian denominations hold that Jesus was a man, but that he also is/was more. In any case, there’s no way to prove Jesus was or wasn’t (a) God.
As far as I can see, religion just doesn’t work this way. Even if all your points were provable, many religious people feel their belief is a positive influence in their lives, so why give it up?
“We are because we are” is itself an existential proposition.
There is nothing futile about religion. Research shows people who believe in God live longer, happier lives. They have less depression, mental illnesses, and are less likely to commit suicide. There is a very practical side to believing in God.
Belief in God brings meaning and purpose to your physical life and hope for the future.
Many have experienced being in the presence of God in near death situations. Here is what one researcher has to say about them.
I can’t understand what non-belief in God offers. Nothing that I can see except maybe the acceptance of your peers. I just don’t see the rationale to it.
I started to answer this, and then realized it was ***lekatt * ** I was answering. But I’ll do so anyway, for others.
The OP is over-the-top in his statements, and doesn’t seem to realize that atheists don’t and shouldn’t “convert” or even try to. But **lekatt’s ** statements are even more ridiculous.
I never *chose * to be atheist, lekatt. Over the years my belief waned more and more as I studied religious writings. I read several holy books of several religions, and they all seemed blind and obtuse to me.
I can’t force belief anymore than you can force disbelief. That’s just the way it works. Nothing in religion has any appeal to me. Believing in a higher power when that higher power has done nothing for me, and the belief of my family in one has actually harmed me - that’s counter-intuitive to me.
lekatt, you’re a doofus. My entire post was tongue in cheek, as the word “/deadpan” should have alerted you.
He’s gone, and we’re arguing amongst ourselves now. What’s that tell you?
Excuse me, debating amongst ourselves.
That he’s said it all, and any further explanation would be superfluous? :dubious:
There is, unfortunately, historical evidence that fervent religious belief tends to beget war. Righteousness breeds intolerance.
Some belief systems, including Chrisitianity, tend to put a higher stock in faith than self-reliance. This can lead to, in some, a tendency to make bad decisions based on a sort of “It’s God’s will” or “God will save us” mentality. See James Watt, Reagan’s Interior Secretary, as one reference.
I see Religion as mostly, although not entirely harmless, and often beneficial for some individuals. It’s a mixed bag.
Not at all, I was just making the point that here’s this OP that rightly gets jumped on for being flippant and contains a lot of unsubstantiated noise (no matter which side of the fence you sit on), and in the midst of the heat it generated, the OP up and disappears.
I personally love reading the **God -v- No God ** threads.
I promised myself I wouldn’t respond to this, but then I read lekatt’s post. And since Leaffan appears to have hauled to and abandoned thread …
Let’s start with suicide. This guy named Emile Durkheim wrote a well known book titled Suicide. It’s a rate comparison of suicide among different groups, including Catholics, Protestants, and Jews. Now, he published this in 1897, so the inequality I’m about to cite from it may be out of date, but he found that Jews had the lowest rate, Protestants the highest rate, and Catholics in the middle. So it seems obvious to me that religion itself, even ones based on the same saviour, do not guarantee the same level of happiness. The choice of religion matters. What Durkheim found was that as something called solidarity went up in a group, the suicide rate went down. Jewish communities are very, very close-knit, Catholics still close-knit but somewhat less so, and Protestants less still. Guess what solidarity is. Yup … the acceptance of society. The feeling that you belong. Religion is not the only institution capable of creating intense solidarity. Look at armed forces veterans who served together - there’s a reason they call that Brotherhood. For that matter, look at fraternities and sororities. The examples are nigh unto endless.
Well, we can be an intimidating group at times and we’re all well versed in the “Theism vs. Atheism” subject. Yes, we’ve seen it most of it all before but the OP is new to this and I guess maybe we should cut him a little slack. There was a first time for everyone here.
On the other hand, somebody who truly wants to learn something will stick with the debate, moderate his tone and ask questions. Perhaps he’ll be back.
Not holding my breath… just sayin’ is all…
Interesting that you say you never chose to be an atheist. I think I get your meaning and we probably can’t name the process of how reason, belief, and logic come together. I have been able to look back and undertstand subconscious reasons why I clung to cetrtain beliefs but as I gained experience and studied I had to let some beliefs go. My beliefs have evolved and I realize there is much more that remains unexplained, but I count myself as a believer. Not in God the sometimes nice sometimes angry diety in the sky but as a still largely unknown higher power.
I would say that belief is a choice of sorts. Not the should I wear the blue shirt or the red one kind of choice, but rather a conclusion we are led to by our own unique experience, emotions and thought process.
How about to thine own self be true? In my own journey I’ve come to the conclusion that it’s very importent to be true to yourself and what’s honestly going on within you. In that sense I appreciate what Anaamika said about atheism not being a choice. Certainly whatever we believe isn’t based on what seems to offer the most emotional benifits. It requires a committment to the truth as we percieve it. In that regard belief or non belief may be a matter of personal integrity.
“But they do it too” isn’t a valid response. It doesn’t work in political debates, and it doesn’t work in religous/spiritual ones, either. More to the point, the OP didn’t specify Christians. He’s asking why everyone in the world isn’t a hard athiest.
Okay, I spoke too soon. The OP did specify Jesus, which could make one think he was focusing on Christianity. My other point still stands.
You are correct.
The slightly superior attitude and disdain shown by believers and non believers doesn’t help the debate. It’s just a fact of human nature. Hopefully we can understand that others have different experiences and reasons for believing as they do and respect their right to be where they are. Even when we don’t understand it.
That doesn’t main that that belief is a choice. Since emotions are involved, I’d say that it at least isn’t a completely free choice, in any case.
My experience and emotions lead me to extremely skeptical agnosticism. My more-or-less rational thought processes lead me to disregard the (to my mind) faint possibily of the existence of any god, mostly for practical purposes; I don’t need a god, and if there are any, I wouldn’t know which one(s) and what I should do about it / he / she / them. Which I decided makes me, for all intends and purposes, an atheist. That last part is some sort of choice.
But for me, there is no choice that would make me a “believer”, just like, I suspect, a truely religious person can’t be convinced by rational arguments alone to become atheist.