# Why can Casinos kick out lucky winners? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 21, 2001, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-can-casinos-kick-out-lucky-winners/55277 "2001-02-21T00:30:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![AWB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/bb73d2/32.png) [@AWB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AWB)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2001, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-can-casinos-kick-out-lucky-winners/55277/41 "2001-02-28T18:00:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by voguevixen \* > \*\*While at the Excalibur in Vegas a few months ago I noticed them using a new shuffle machine in which the shuffler and the shoe were incorporated, with the shuffler shuffling constantly. After the dealer scooped up each hand it went back into the shuffler, making it near impossible to count cards. In fact, you could end up with the exact same card two hands running. At the time they were only using it on a couple of the low-bet tables, as I think most of the high rollers would be seriously put off by one and take their business elsewhere. \*\* Yuck-O! You might as well play the video blackjack machines! ---
**Author:** ![Billy\_Baroo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/76d3ee/32.png) [@Billy\_Baroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Billy_Baroo)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2001, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-can-casinos-kick-out-lucky-winners/55277/42 "2001-02-28T22:49:06Z")
_The Eudaemonic Pie_ by Thomas A. Bass. Years ago my Dad lent me this book when I was starting to study computers. It exquisitely piqued my desire to be a scientist. And all that it implies. 🙂 How this relates (albeit obliquely) to the OP: The book tells the story of how a free-spirited group of math/physics eggheads from California universities in the '70s tried to beat Vegas by pitting the earliest microprocessors against the roulette wheel. Their dream was to be latter-day Merry Men, liberating money from the evil casinos to fund their heady research interests (e.g. chaos theory). **WARNING: SPOILERS AHEAD** \* An antique roulette wheel was purchased to aid their experiments in the lab. They designed algorithms that took some initial conditions as input and would output the predicted slice of the pie (i.e. 3 or 4 adjacent numbers on the wheel) where the ball would land. They hardwired the algorithms into homemade computers, and then concealed the devices in the gamers’ shoes. One operator watched the wheel for about a half hour and, by toe-tapping inputs to the shoe computer, taught the physics of the target wheel and ball to the prediction algorithm. Once the outputs were sufficiently accurate, the wagerer stepped in. He had a computer on him too. It communicated wirelessly with the other unit and expressed the output via solenoids attached to the wagerer’s chest. When both team members were working, timing became crucial. The operator had to get a few inputs fed to the algorithm, then the wagerer had to receive the output, and lay down a bet on the 3 or 4 numbers in the pie slice, all during the time which the ball was travelling. They observed a wide variance in the predictability of the wheels from casino to casino. Nevertheless, under optimal conditions (e.g. in the lab; or in the field with no computer malfunction, no expulsion by wary pit bosses, a good unbiased wheel with a consistent croupier, etc.), they were achieving a 30% advantage over the house. Unfortunately they were plagued with complications. For example, the “eye in the sky” interfered with the communication between the devices, and sometimes the wagerer would sweat too much and short out the solenoids on his chest. Nowadays the scientists apply their theoretical prowess elsewhere. Dad tells me they are quite the day traders… ---
**Author:** ![muttrox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a8b319/32.png) [@muttrox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muttrox)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2001, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-can-casinos-kick-out-lucky-winners/55277/43 "2001-03-01T13:59:00Z")
It is an excellent book. The crew who did this has a lot of overlap with the folks who pioneered card counting. They did go on to try and analyze the market, and that story is also a great book, whose title escapes me right now… ---
**Author:** ![BINGOSUX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/5f9b8f/32.png) [@BINGOSUX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BINGOSUX)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2016, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-can-casinos-kick-out-lucky-winners/55277/44 "2016-02-11T03:22:04Z")
My first visit to the casino in Brisbane Australia i was playing slots and was up around $300 Putting about $1500 through their machines had $300 in a machine i felt was about to pay out and was approached by security who accused me of selling drugs in the toilets lol i laughed thats ridiculous no i did not do you want to check my bag? No Get off the machine cash out and fuck off. I felt threatened by obvious violent big men I could not argue i weigh 63Kilograms. A joke thats how you get treated. The ones here saying no they are lovely they give me comps and rooms are female retiree’s and the two very different ways to treat people makes my experience even worse…you got a hotel room I got accused of being a person who sells drugs in mens toilets. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2016, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-can-casinos-kick-out-lucky-winners/55277/45 "2016-02-11T03:30:42Z")
The drooling, shambling and groaning are what gets you tossed out of casinos. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2016, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-can-casinos-kick-out-lucky-winners/55277/46 "2016-02-11T03:30:59Z")
Looks like things haven’t changed much in 15 years. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2016, 9:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-can-casinos-kick-out-lucky-winners/55277/47 "2016-02-11T09:03:28Z")
> [@BINGOSUX](#): > > My first visit to the casino in Brisbane Australia i was playing slots and was up around $300 Putting about $1500 through their machines had $300 in a machine i felt was about to pay out I doubt a casino would be worried by a $ 300 gain, and “feeling that it was about to pay out” doesn’t mean that it would (and even if it had, and they knew that, the next player sitting got the money, so it doesn’t make a difference for the casino). My guess is that they _actually_ thought you had been selling drugs in the toilets. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2016, 10:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-can-casinos-kick-out-lucky-winners/55277/48 "2016-02-11T10:45:14Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > I doubt a casino would be worried by a $ 300 gain, and “feeling that it was about to pay out” doesn’t mean that it would (and even if it had, and they knew that, the next player sitting got the money, so it doesn’t make a difference for the casino). > My guess is that they _actually_ thought you had been selling drugs in the toilets. Agreed. 300 is not a big payout and you would be likely to give it right back to them in the shops. ---
**Author:** ![SpyOne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/82dd89/32.png) [@SpyOne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpyOne)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2016, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-can-casinos-kick-out-lucky-winners/55277/49 "2016-02-11T16:28:14Z")
While I agree that no casino is going to ask you to leave over winning $300, the drug dealing accusation may have been fiction. A TV show I saw about people trying to beat casinos mentioned an important difference between the laws in Las Vegas and Atlantic City: in Vegas, casinos are private businesses and can refuse service to anyone at any time for any reason. But in Atlantic City they are public places, and they can’t throw you out unless you commit a crime. \* Perhaps the Australian casinos have a similar problem? In which case, if they want to throw you out, they just accuse you of committing a crime. What I’m saying is: they wanted you to leave. That pretty much has to be because they felt you were bad for business. Since you weren’t winning a lot of money, it has to be something else. Maybe they genuinely thought you were a guy they’d seen dealing drugs, maybe they thought you needed to bathe, maybe you were being loud and obnoxious. - - The story on the show was that a guy got caught counting cards in Atlantic City and decided to fight getting thrown out, so the whole thing wound up in court. The judge said (of the surveillance video), “I see him playing cards, and I see him winning. Explain to me again where I see him _cheating_?” So the judge ruled that counting cards wasn’t cheating, wasn’t illegal, and thus you can’t throw somebody out for doing it. And for the … three weeks or so it took before the casinos got that overturned, every card-counter in the world descended on Atlantic City. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2016, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-can-casinos-kick-out-lucky-winners/55277/50 "2016-02-11T16:39:07Z")
Apparently people are still under the mistaken impression that you can gamble at a casino. In gambling you have a fair chance of winning, at a casino every game and all the rules are stacked in favor of the house. They can throw you for winning because if they don’t they might lose money. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2016, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-can-casinos-kick-out-lucky-winners/55277/51 "2016-02-11T16:45:54Z")
Nitpick: Card counters are not generally “kicked out” or “asked to leave.” They’re just told not to play Twenty-One (and are often encouraged to play other games, or enjoy a free meal for the bother). ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2016, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-can-casinos-kick-out-lucky-winners/55277/52 "2016-02-11T16:48:25Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > I doubt a casino would be worried by a $ 300 gain, and “feeling that it was about to pay out” doesn’t mean that it would (and even if it had, and they knew that, the next player sitting got the money, so it doesn’t make a difference for the casino). > My guess is that they _actually_ thought you had been selling drugs in the toilets. Or they didn’t like his total lack of grammar. ---
**Author:** ![Hampshire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hampshire/32/4887_2.png) [@Hampshire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hampshire)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2016, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-can-casinos-kick-out-lucky-winners/55277/53 "2016-02-11T17:01:49Z")
For people that got lucky and won a lot of money at a casino, casinos are more apt to try to keep the person IN their casino rather than kick them out. I doubt casinos believe in luck but I’m pretty sure they believe in winning odds (Especially the ‘Law Of Large Numbers’ A principle of probability and statistics which states that as a sample size grows, its mean will get closer and closer to the average of the whole population.) In other words someone may beat the odds on a fortunate one time win or small streak, but the more they play and re-play the more they are likely to loose and see the odds come to fruition. Comps for big winners are common because the casino wants every opportunity to win their money back. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2016, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-can-casinos-kick-out-lucky-winners/55277/54 "2016-02-11T18:42:45Z")
> [@Hampshire](#): > > For people that got lucky and won a lot of money at a casino, casinos are more apt to try to keep the person IN their casino rather than kick them out. > I doubt casinos believe in luck but I’m pretty sure they believe in winning odds (Especially the ‘Law Of Large Numbers’ A principle of probability and statistics which states that as a sample size grows, its mean will get closer and closer to the average of the whole population.) > In other words someone may beat the odds on a fortunate one time win or small streak, but the more they play and re-play the more they are likely to loose and see the odds come to fruition. > Comps for big winners are common because the casino wants every opportunity to win their money back. This x a big stack of purples. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2016, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-can-casinos-kick-out-lucky-winners/55277/55 "2016-02-11T19:01:09Z")
They can kick you out because they own the casino. But usually, a casino will do the opposite and try to keep you around so you can lose all the money you won and they can get it back. As for counting cards, it’s not allowed because the casinos say it’s not. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2016, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-can-casinos-kick-out-lucky-winners/55277/56 "2016-02-11T19:15:46Z")
> [@Alan\_Smithee](#): > > What about professional gamblers? Do they really exist? If so, the only way they could make money is by winning a lot more than the rest of us (presumably by playing only blackjack and counting cards like Dustin Hoffman). I think I read somewhere that this is just what they do, and that casinos love them because they know just when to quit so that the casino makes more money from suckers watching and thinking, “Hey! I could do that!” than they pay to the professional. Anyone know the inside story for sure? These are mostly in games of skill, like poker. In fact some casinos pay poker players (proposition players) to play a set number of hours a day (using the player’s money) to create “action” at that table. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2016, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-can-casinos-kick-out-lucky-winners/55277/57 "2016-02-11T19:32:02Z")
The things you have to remember about counting cards are: 1. It’s a slog. All it does is give you a slight edge sometimes. 2. Casinos have switched to multiple deck shoes, more frequent shuffles and other tricks to destroy a counter’s edge. 3. Most people don’t know how to count properly. These are people a casino loves, because they are going to go broke. 4. Winners make casinos richer, not poorer. What casinos don’t like are cheaters. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2016, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-can-casinos-kick-out-lucky-winners/55277/58 "2016-02-11T19:35:03Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Apparently people are still under the mistaken impression that you can gamble at a casino. In gambling you have a fair chance of winning, at a casino every game and all the rules are stacked in favor of the house. They can throw you for winning because if they don’t they might lose money. I don’t agree with definition of gambling. In a casino you do have a fair chance of winning even if you have a greater chance of losing. And that makes it gambling. A non-gambling business is something like Walmart where there’s no element of chance involved. You go into Walmart and you pay a specified amount of money for a specified product. You don’t go to Walmart and spend ten dollars and maybe get nothing or maybe a shirt or maybe a television. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2016, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-can-casinos-kick-out-lucky-winners/55277/59 "2016-02-11T19:38:29Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > These are mostly in games of skill, like poker. In fact some casinos pay poker players (proposition players) to play a set number of hours a day (using the player’s money) to create “action” at that table. My understanding is that casinos charge the players a set amount for the time they spend at the poker table. They don’t care which players win or lose in the game because they have no stake in that. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2016, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-can-casinos-kick-out-lucky-winners/55277/60 "2016-02-11T19:50:00Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I don’t agree with definition of gambling. In a casino you do have a fair chance of winning even if you have a greater chance of losing. And that makes it gambling. > > A non-gambling business is something like Walmart where there’s no element of chance involved. You go into Walmart and you pay a specified amount of money for a specified product. You don’t go to Walmart and spend ten dollars and maybe get nothing or maybe a shirt or maybe a television. Sure, because it’s not a real definition, it’s just meant to highlight that the chances of walking away from a casino with more money than you entered with are pretty low. The casinos definitely don’t want to gamble, they want their profit guaranteed. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-can-casinos-kick-out-lucky-winners/55277.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-can-casinos-kick-out-lucky-winners/55277.md?page=4)