# Why can I humiliate you in the sports world, but not the classroom? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 6, 2010, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-can-i-humiliate-you-in-the-sports-world-but-not-the-classroom/538515 "2010-05-06T15:21:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Creole\_Tomato](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a4c791/32.png) [@Creole\_Tomato](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Creole_Tomato)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2010, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-can-i-humiliate-you-in-the-sports-world-but-not-the-classroom/538515/61 "2010-05-09T16:47:41Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > But see, this is the crux of why your argument fails. I just looked at the annual budget for my local school district. Nothing is separated out in any meaningful way. Teacher salaries for multiple schools are lumped together. But then, teacher salaries for special ed kids are separated out, but again, multiple schools are lumped together. Then, the computer teacher staff are separated out. “Supervision” is considered separate from teachers, but no explanation of what Supervision is is given. > > However, with this number I can do some quick and dirty calculations on how that relates to the gifted students because the budget also includes graduation numbers and class sizes. > > Later in the budget, it showed that in the last three years, the school had 74 graduates. Of those 704, 235 graduated as part of the Honors program. > > The math shows us that 33% of the student population took part in the Honors program, meaning that even if you limit “Honors program spending” to 33% of the general teacher salaries, you come up with a number much, much larger than the Athletics budget. > [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > Yes, it does. There are 704 total graduates and 235 graduate from the Honors program. > > Now, I’m no math supergenius, but that most certainly comes to 33%. Yes, ok. One-third of the students in last year’s graduating class took at least one Honors class. From that, we can deduce that one-third of the total students in your school district, grades K-12 (and probably including Early Childhood programming) were enrolled in the Honors program, and therefore it makes perfect sense that fully one-third of all the teachers in your district, grades K-12 (and again, probably including Early Childhood) taught Honors classes full-time. No problem with your logic at all. Carry on. Just for jollies, how many of the 704 students that graduated last year played sports, or were at least enrolled in P.E.? What? Nearly all of them?! But that would mean… :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2010, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-can-i-humiliate-you-in-the-sports-world-but-not-the-classroom/538515/62 "2010-05-09T18:01:46Z")
> [@Creole\_Tomato](#): > > Yes, ok. One-third of the students in last year’s graduating class took at least one Honors class. From that, we can deduce that one-third of the total students in your school district, grades K-12 (and probably including Early Childhood programming) were enrolled in the Honors program, and therefore it makes perfect sense that fully one-third of all the teachers in your district, grades K-12 (and again, probably including Early Childhood) taught Honors classes full-time. > > No problem with your logic at all. Carry on. Alright fine. We’ll do it your way. 235 students graduated from the Honors program, this is a New York state program that requires a certain number of Honor classes to graduate with an Honors diploma. It’s a lot more than 1, I think closer to 12. And I never said 1/3 of all teachers K-12 taught Honors classes. I said 1/3 of the teacher salaries (the closest breakdown is 7-12) is still way, way above the Athletics budget. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2010, 7:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-can-i-humiliate-you-in-the-sports-world-but-not-the-classroom/538515/63 "2010-05-10T07:21:48Z")
As strange as it may sound, _gifted students_ are special education students. Yet out of every $100 set aside for special education, only $1 goes to gifted programs. The rest goes to programs for students with learning disabilities. That has never seemed fair at all. (These are statistics from about five years ago.) ---
**Author:** ![Creole\_Tomato](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a4c791/32.png) [@Creole\_Tomato](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Creole_Tomato)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2010, 11:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-can-i-humiliate-you-in-the-sports-world-but-not-the-classroom/538515/64 "2010-05-10T11:35:56Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > Alright fine. We’ll do it your way. > > 235 students graduated from the Honors program, this is a New York state program that requires a certain number of Honor classes to graduate with an Honors diploma. It’s a lot more than 1, I think closer to 12. > > And I never said 1/3 of all teachers K-12 taught Honors classes. I said 1/3 of the teacher salaries (the closest breakdown is 7-12) is still way, way above the Athletics budget. :smack: Please stop. Seriously. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2010, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-can-i-humiliate-you-in-the-sports-world-but-not-the-classroom/538515/65 "2010-05-10T12:13:07Z")
> [@Creole\_Tomato](#): > > :smack: > Please stop. Seriously. How about, instead of being all know-it-ally, you tell me exactly how my numbers and calculations are wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Creole\_Tomato](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a4c791/32.png) [@Creole\_Tomato](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Creole_Tomato)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2010, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-can-i-humiliate-you-in-the-sports-world-but-not-the-classroom/538515/66 "2010-05-10T21:09:27Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > How about, instead of being all know-it-ally, you tell me exactly how my numbers and calculations are wrong. Because, frankly, I’m tired of you, and I find I have little time to spend on this kind of bullshit. In addition, there are so many problems that it will be a pain in the ass to list and address them all. Finally, I think that even after I’ve done that, you’ll still want to be a smartass about how you’re “not gifted, just an Honors student.” (Although, one-third of the students in your district are–according to your uncited information–Honors students. Where the hell do you live? Lake Woebegone?) > [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > Did you read that entire article? The $1.3 million number is the sports budget for all _32_ middle schools in the district. Also as noted in the article, the total budget for all of the schools in the entire district is $1 billion. > > You’re not playing fair with the numbers and not proving your point at all. > > (snip) > > Second of all, that $1.3 million is spread across 32 schools, meaning each school spends about $40,000 on sports. When you factor in all the equipment and pay for coaches, that is an incredibly tiny number. > > And the total budget is important because $1.3 million out of $1 billion is just slightly higher than 0.1%. How can that small percentage be too much? > > (snip) > > At this point, you’re just flinging numbers around. Numbers that don’t prove anything. But what do I know, I’m not “gifted”, I just took part in the Honors program during high school. You missed the point from the very beginning. The breakdown on individual schools’ budgets (or districts) by percentage has fuck all to do with anything. The point was to get an idea of TOTAL national spending in real numbers. It doesn’t matter if the budgeting for any program is 95% of spending or .00001% of spending. Only the total amount spent matters. If you spent 40% of your paycheck on hamsters, and your friend spent 1% of his paycheck on hamsters, but you each bought one hamster for $3.96, does that mean you spent more money? If your friend says that states spent 4 million dollars on sidewalk cement, and was able to prove that Florida alone spent 3.96 million, would you be yelling that he was just “flinging numbers around” because that 3.96 million made up only .0000000001% of the state budget, so how could it be too much? > [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > But see, this is the crux of why your argument fails. I just looked at the annual budget for my local school district. **Nothing is separated out in any meaningful way. Teacher salaries for multiple schools are lumped together.** But then, teacher salaries for special ed kids are separated out, but again, multiple schools are lumped together. Then, the computer teacher staff are separated out. “Supervision” is considered separate from teachers, but no explanation of what Supervision is is given. You give an uncited reference to a school budget, in which you say that “nothing is separated out in any meaningful way. Teacher salaries for multiple schools are lumped together.” But that didn’t stop you from counting Athletics, which you say was only 1% of the budget, again missing the point. > [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > However, with this number I can do some quick and dirty calculations on how that relates to the gifted students because the budget also includes graduation numbers and class sizes. > > Later in the budget, it showed that in the last three years, the school had 74 graduates. Of those 704, 235 graduated as part of the Honors program. Then from this budget in which “nothing was separated out in a meaningful way” with “teacher salaries lumped together” you decide two amazing things. First of all, since 33% of graduates graduated as part of the Honors program, > [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > The math shows us that 33% of the student population took part in the Honors program. No. It shows that 33% of the last few graduating classes took part in the Honors program. And second, > [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > meaning that even if you limit “Honors program spending” to 33% of the general teacher salaries, you come up with a number much, much larger than the Athletics budget. How you assumed that 33% of the general teachers salaries should be charged to the Honors program is beyond me. What if we found out that all the students learned a foreign language at the high school. Could we then say that 100% of the general teacher salaries were spent on foreign languages? Add in a meaningless comparison to your athletics budget (which again, means fuckall coming from an uncited source that has no indication of being representative of national spending), and you’re completely off the rails. > [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > Alright fine. We’ll do it your way. > > 235 students graduated from the Honors program, this is a New York state program that requires a certain number of Honor classes to graduate with an Honors diploma. It’s a lot more than 1, I think closer to 12. > > And I never said 1/3 of all teachers K-12 taught Honors classes. I said 1/3 of the teacher salaries (the closest breakdown is 7-12) is still way, way above the Athletics budget. Suddenly, you were able to break down the school salary spending to elementary versus middle/high school. It’s like a miracle happened since the first time you looked at that budget! Then you **“think”** the number of classes needed to be an Honor graduate is **“closer to 12.”** Not that it matters at this point. My own high school spent _zero_ on athletics and _all_ their curricular and instructional funding on gifted students–it was a residential high school for gifted kids. Who cares?? What exactly does that mean when we’re talking about the overall school funding of the entire country in real numbers? We could argue about budget percentages until we’re both grandparents, and it makes a rat’s ass bit of difference. See? ---
**Author:** ![A\_Dodgy\_Dude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a87d85/32.png) [@A\_Dodgy\_Dude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_Dodgy_Dude)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2010, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-can-i-humiliate-you-in-the-sports-world-but-not-the-classroom/538515/67 "2010-05-11T21:55:50Z")
You’re not supposed to be humiliating your opponent in sports. In baseball, most teams have something called a “seven and seven” rule: if we are winning by seven runs or more and the game in the seventh inning or later, we stop trying so hard. Call it “professional courtesy.” The idea is to beat your opponent, not belittle them. ---
**Author:** ![Random\_Design](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/58f4c7/32.png) [@Random\_Design](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Random_Design)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 11:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-can-i-humiliate-you-in-the-sports-world-but-not-the-classroom/538515/68 "2010-05-12T11:23:53Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > Is this really that hard to figure out? Sports are vastly more interesting to watch than a guy writing an essay. To you perhaps. There is a large population of people that would strongly disagree, and I would be one of them despite not being female. > [@Capt. Ridley's Shooting Party](#): > > Finally, once his career is up, what is he supposed to do? Cry crocodile tears while lamenting his poor life decisions? > [@Capt. Ridley's Shooting Party](#): > > He’s virtually unemployable in any other capacity, apart from going on to coach a football team, I suppose you missed the irony of what you just wrote here, so I’ll outline it: sports stars are economically useless once their starriness fades. The fact they spent countless hours on a field dedicating themselves to being so empirically useless - KNOWing they will have no other place in society if they do - does not warrant paying them exorbitant amounts while all their limbs and joints are still functional. > [@Capt. Ridley's Shooting Party](#): > > If you want to attract talent, you have to pay well. Indeed. So you tell me why you wouldn’t want educators to be among the most well-paid of professions. ---
**Author:** ![Hodiggity1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/da6949/32.png) [@Hodiggity1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hodiggity1)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-can-i-humiliate-you-in-the-sports-world-but-not-the-classroom/538515/69 "2010-05-12T14:08:44Z")
> [@Random\_Design](#): > > To you perhaps. There is a large population of people that would strongly disagree, and I would be one of them despite not being female. > > Cry crocodile tears while lamenting his poor life decisions? > > I suppose you missed the irony of what you just wrote here, so I’ll outline it: sports stars are economically useless once their starriness fades. The fact they spent countless hours on a field dedicating themselves to being so empirically useless - KNOWing they will have no other place in society if they do - does not warrant paying them exorbitant amounts while all their limbs and joints are still functional. You sound really bitter. Do you feel the same way about musicians, actors, writers? If not, what makes a sports star “empirically useless” compared to other entertainers? You try to highlight the ridiculousness of sports stars’ high pay based on their economic “uselessness” after their career, but you actually make the case for their high pay. They engage in a profession that has a short career span, is highly valued by the consumer, and demands highly specialized skills that only a minuscule percentage of the population has. That sounds like great leverage in salary negotiations. > [@Random\_Design](#): > > Indeed. So you tell me why you wouldn’t want educators to be among the most well-paid of professions. Supply and demand. It doesn’t take a math major to teach high school math. This opens the position to a wider pool of applicants, shifting the supply curve right (vs. requiring math teachers to major in math) and putting downward pressure on wages. On the other hand, college professors make good money - average salary is $108,749 [according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics.](http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos066.htm#earnings) That puts them in around the 90th to 95th percentile of household income in the US, I believe. ---
**Author:** ![Mince](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecd19e/32.png) [@Mince](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mince)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-can-i-humiliate-you-in-the-sports-world-but-not-the-classroom/538515/70 "2010-05-12T14:22:33Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > I take it you never played sports much? > > It is generally considered “poor sportsmanship” to humilate or belittle an opponent on the sports field. Especially one in where the competition is extremely one-sided in your favor. Some degree of “smack talk” is acceptable for the purpose of psyching the other guy out. > > If you feel “humiliated” or “look foolish” on the field, then you should practice more and harder. The expectation is that you are engaging in an athletic competition with a similarly skilled opponent and you have spent an appropriate amount of effort preparing. > > An athlete who goes around strutting his stuff off the field is often known as a “bully”, “dickhead” or “douchebag”. > The reason you would be an asshole for rubbing your higher IQ score in someone else’s face is that one, you didn’t do anything other than inherent a brain. It’s like being proud because you are tall. And two, most people are not engaged in a competition for “who has the highest IQ”. > > If you want to engage in a contest of intellect with someone, I’m sure both are free to talk shit. “[http://www.hulu.com/watch/2331/saturday-night-live-update—bennett-brauer](http://www.hulu.com/watch/2331/saturday-night-live-update---bennett-brauer)” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-can-i-humiliate-you-in-the-sports-world-but-not-the-classroom/538515.md?page=3)