# Why can't airstrikes give anti-Isis fighters an overwhelming advantage? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 12, 2014, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-airstrikes-give-anti-isis-fighters-an-overwhelming-advantage/701115 "2014-10-12T16:40:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-airstrikes-give-anti-isis-fighters-an-overwhelming-advantage/701115/21 "2014-10-15T14:30:17Z")
Enough airstrikes would stop ISIS in their tracks. And then what? Even with ISIS forces immobilized the Iraqi army isn’t going to do a damn thing. Iran has been a better ally for us than Iraq in this matter. ---
**Author:** ![IMfez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/f07891/32.png) [@IMfez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IMfez)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-airstrikes-give-anti-isis-fighters-an-overwhelming-advantage/701115/22 "2014-10-15T14:35:52Z")
To those who say that airpower cannot occupy territory, I fully agree, but I think the implication of your point ignores the ground forces that are available. Maybe the Iraqi army really is so bad that it can’t hold ground though. ---
**Author:** ![FlikTheBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fliktheblue/32/10972_2.png) [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-airstrikes-give-anti-isis-fighters-an-overwhelming-advantage/701115/23 "2014-10-15T15:05:24Z")
I wonder why we haven’t heard much about the Iraqi army? Are they completely incompetent or is it that they are just not trying? My understanding is that IS is using a lot of American arms that we had supplied to the Iraqi army that they captured when IS took territory in northern Iraq. But how is it that IS can use these weapons to take territory but the Iraqi army was unable to do so? It’s hard for me to believe that the IS soldiers are that good and that the Iraqi troops are that bad. I get the feeling that the Iraqi army just isn’t trying/doesn’t care. Is that correct? If this is the situation, and it’s not a matter of the Iraqi army being poorly trained, but just not caring, how can any amount of air strikes help them? ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-airstrikes-give-anti-isis-fighters-an-overwhelming-advantage/701115/24 "2014-10-15T15:29:30Z")
> [@bump](#): > > I think this is it in a nutshell. If we had FAOs embedded with the Kurdish Peshmerga or any of the other forces fighting ISIS, then we’d be able to effectively coordinate close air support for them. We may not have boots on the ground but I bet we have Nikes. No one official but there are probably guys who look like this [guy](http://www.twistedplastic.com/figures/modern/sf_cowboy.jpg). ---
**Author:** ![Si\_Amigo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/si_amigo/32/2877_2.png) [@Si\_Amigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Si_Amigo)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-airstrikes-give-anti-isis-fighters-an-overwhelming-advantage/701115/25 "2014-10-15T15:34:27Z")
The Iraq army is a victim of terrorism and is afraid to actually fight due to a lack of grass roots support from their own people. The whole population is under threat not from an army but from their own neighbors. We already tried fighting the battle for them on the ground and all we got was a guerrilla insurgency that was supported by many of the very people we were there to help. The people are going to stand by a strong man in this type of atmosphere; someone who can maintain some type of order. We might as well (and should have) left Saddam in power; at least he was the devil we knew and wasn’t supporting al Qaeda. ---
**Author:** ![CC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f1d935/32.png) [@CC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CC)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-airstrikes-give-anti-isis-fighters-an-overwhelming-advantage/701115/26 "2014-10-15T15:43:58Z")
I think the answer to the OP is that you can’t bomb an ideology to death. Kill off a whole bunch of ISIS soldiers. Others just scatter and reconvene, reassemble, and start up again. Could you do anything significant in a cockroach-infested building with a machine gun? Seems similar to me. This is a problem that doesn’t have a military solution. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-airstrikes-give-anti-isis-fighters-an-overwhelming-advantage/701115/27 "2014-10-15T15:46:43Z")
> [@FlikTheBlue](#): > > I wonder why we haven’t heard much about the Iraqi army? Are they completely incompetent or is it that they are just not trying? My understanding is that IS is using a lot of American arms that we had supplied to the Iraqi army that they captured when IS took territory in northern Iraq. But how is it that IS can use these weapons to take territory but the Iraqi army was unable to do so? It’s hard for me to believe that the IS soldiers are that good and that the Iraqi troops are that bad. I get the feeling that the Iraqi army just isn’t trying/doesn’t care. Is that correct? If this is the situation, and it’s not a matter of the Iraqi army being poorly trained, but just not caring, how can any amount of air strikes help them? It is not about how “good” Iraqi army soldiers are. It is about motivation. It seems that most people living in the area that is called “Iraq” today don’t really care for Iraq to exist. They don’t seem to identify with “Iraq” and don’t seem to want to defend “Iraq”. The “Iraqi army” is composed of such people and most recruits went in because it was something that paid in the country with a devastated economy. If you felt like this and you were in the Iraqi army, would you be willing to die to defend some abstract entity that you didn’t really care about? US has to continue to try to prop “Iraq” up because we (foreign policy people in the US government) believe that having it break up would lead to big instability in the region and is contrary to the US interests. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-airstrikes-give-anti-isis-fighters-an-overwhelming-advantage/701115/28 "2014-10-15T17:36:29Z")
The Iraqi army that we spent billions of dollars to train and arm doesn’t really exist as a fighting force. The only ground forces that will actually fight against ISIS are Kurdish militias. ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-airstrikes-give-anti-isis-fighters-an-overwhelming-advantage/701115/29 "2014-10-15T17:51:53Z")
Hey, wanna learn some Iraqi slang? [“Astronauts.”](http://www.niqash.org/articles/?id=3549) Ex-soldiers who escaped their duties by bribing their superior officers. > [@](#): > > Abbas al-Saadi is a soldier and by rights he should be stationed near Tikrit, where his unit is involved fighting the IS group. But instead he works as a taxi driver. “If I was killed, who would look after my wife and three children?” he asks. “I love the military but I am worried about the IS group. They not only kill soldiers in battle, they behead them and burn them. That’s why I decided to give all of my salary to the officer in charge of our unit so that he would register me absent with leave.” […] Soldiers like him say they will return to duty but that they are just waiting for their units to be shifted into other, less dangerous areas before they do. ---
**Author:** ![slaphead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9bcb4/32.png) [@slaphead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slaphead)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-airstrikes-give-anti-isis-fighters-an-overwhelming-advantage/701115/30 "2014-10-15T17:52:40Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > The Iraqi army that we spent billions of dollars to train and arm doesn’t really exist as a fighting force. And in some cases it doesn’t exist at all, other than as a bunch of fictitious names on payrolls and stacks of fake invoices, commanded by amazingly wealthy generals. ---
**Author:** ![Mk\_VII](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Mk\_VII](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mk_VII)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-airstrikes-give-anti-isis-fighters-an-overwhelming-advantage/701115/31 "2014-10-15T20:26:44Z")
There is another thread going where we have explored this subject. The Iraqi army has ‘all the gear but no idea’ - or rather we’ve told them the idea but they don’t want to listen. They don’t feel like fighting the war on the ground if there’s a chance that Whitey can fight it for them from 10,000 feet. Arab armies generally are poorly motivated. Soldiering is not a high-status job so many of those who volunteer for it (or are conscripted in which case even fewer of them want to be there) are unemployed or unemployable and only want to collect their pay packet at the end of the week. Enlisted men are often poorly treated. Officers have no concept of leadership. “_First my men, then myself_” is unknown to them. ---
**Author:** ![davida03801](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b5e925/32.png) [@davida03801](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davida03801)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-airstrikes-give-anti-isis-fighters-an-overwhelming-advantage/701115/32 "2014-10-15T20:48:18Z")
The only thing that will work in Iraq is Genghis Khan type of war methods of total devastation and massacre. Per what I see in the news ISIS seems to understand this well. We don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-airstrikes-give-anti-isis-fighters-an-overwhelming-advantage/701115/33 "2014-10-15T22:01:46Z")
> [@Mk\_VII](#): > > The Iraqi army has ‘all the gear but no idea’ - or rather we’ve told them the idea but they don’t want to listen. They don’t feel like fighting the war on the ground if there’s a chance that Whitey can fight it for them from 10,000 feet. > Arab armies generally are poorly motivated. Soldiering is not a high-status job so many of those who volunteer for it (or are conscripted in which case even fewer of them want to be there) are unemployed or unemployable and only want to collect their pay packet at the end of the week. Enlisted men are often poorly treated. Officers have no concept of leadership. “_First my men, then myself_” is unknown to them. An interesting article I read about a decade ago: [Why Arabs Lose Wars](http://www.meforum.org/441/why-arabs-lose-wars) It echoes some of the same things you mentioned, and includes other significant factors, all of which tend to result in an ineffectual fighting force. ---
**Author:** ![runningdude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e9c0ed/32.png) [@runningdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/runningdude)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2014, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-airstrikes-give-anti-isis-fighters-an-overwhelming-advantage/701115/34 "2014-10-16T02:49:41Z")
> [@IMfez](#): > > Is it correct to say that perhaps we’re not using the right tools for the job then? Hard for me to give advice to army generals, but that’s what it sounds like so far. The generals are giving very different advice than is being implemented; the generals want ground troops and heavy air support. It is the President who does not want ground troops. As Commander and Chief, the general’s hands are tied, and they are doing the best they can with what they are allowed to do. ---
**Author:** ![slaphead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9bcb4/32.png) [@slaphead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slaphead)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2014, 8:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-airstrikes-give-anti-isis-fighters-an-overwhelming-advantage/701115/35 "2014-10-16T08:00:45Z")
> [@runningdude](#): > > The generals are giving very different advice than is being implemented; the generals want ground troops and heavy air support. > > It is the President who does not want ground troops. Well duh. Generals always want to deplay lots of divisions and lots of aircraft, because that’s the easiest way to win, and politicians always want to avoid getting craptons of voters killed/maimed because it tends to be bad for their electoral prospects. Sending 50K-100K US troops into the Iraqi borderlands would shut down most of this IS nonsense within a few weeks and then what? Another decade or two of endless IEDs, suicide bombers and sniping, with occasional light relief stamping out Sunni/Shia mini civil wars. Doesn’t sound very tempting, to be honest. ---
**Author:** ![runningdude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e9c0ed/32.png) [@runningdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/runningdude)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2014, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-airstrikes-give-anti-isis-fighters-an-overwhelming-advantage/701115/36 "2014-10-18T15:27:37Z")
> [@slaphead](#): > > Well duh. Generals always want to deplay lots of divisions and lots of aircraft, because that’s the easiest way to win, and politicians always want to avoid getting craptons of voters killed/maimed because it tends to be bad for their electoral prospects. > > Sending 50K-100K US troops into the Iraqi borderlands would shut down most of this IS nonsense within a few weeks and then what? Another decade or two of endless IEDs, suicide bombers and sniping, with occasional light relief stamping out Sunni/Shia mini civil wars. Doesn’t sound very tempting, to be honest. “Well duh”, indeed. ---
**Author:** ![Si\_Amigo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/si_amigo/32/2877_2.png) [@Si\_Amigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Si_Amigo)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2014, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-airstrikes-give-anti-isis-fighters-an-overwhelming-advantage/701115/37 "2014-10-18T15:55:06Z")
> [@runningdude](#): > > It is the President who does not want ground troops. As Commander and Chief, the general’s hands are tied, and they are doing the best they can with what they are allowed to do. Actually it’s the majority of Americans that don’t want to get evolved in Iraq again and who can blame them. Neither administration that was involved in the previous conflict had good solutions. ---
**Author:** ![runningdude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e9c0ed/32.png) [@runningdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/runningdude)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2014, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-airstrikes-give-anti-isis-fighters-an-overwhelming-advantage/701115/38 "2014-10-19T00:33:11Z")
> [@Si\_Amigo](#): > > Actually it’s the majority of Americans that don’t want to get evolved in Iraq again and who can blame them. Neither administration that was involved in the previous conflict had good solutions. I think it is safe to say that the “majority” of Americans also do not want ISIS to succeed. Or the “majority” may be indifferent, but that is irrelevant. There is a basic ducking of accountability here, trying to portray the rise of ISIS as inevitable and unforeseeable, when this is simply not the case. Had President Obama not withdrawn troops, ISIS would have had a considerably more difficult time conquering vast swaths of Iraq. While victory can never be assured, removing the troops foreseeably created a power vacuum that allowed this terrorist group to come to power. President Obama made a campaign promise to “end” the campaign in Iraq six years ago. Three years ago, the President withdrew the troops without any concern for the current conditions on the ground, against the advice of his generals and even high level advisers. The President promised that the Iraqi military was sufficiently trained and disciplined to handle any insurgents, a promise that was based on information known to be dubious. Saddam Hussein, a murderous despot that gassed his own people, understood the value of ground troops, and prevented Al Qaeda and its brood from gaining a foothold in the country. The United States, very unwisely, disbanded the original Iraqi military, and withdrew before a properly trained and motivated one was rebuilt in its place. Admittedly, the disbanding wads done under President’s Bush’s watch, but President Obama campaigned for President knowing that this was the situation he would inherit in Iraq, so he must own it. The President chose cheap political gain by withdrawing the troops before the 2012 election. The President could have done the unpopular thing, leaving support troops in place to keep the country relatively stable. He may have had to “break” his promise, but not all campaign promises can possibly be kept, especially ones that involve controlling groups actively undermining our nation. He might have even lost the election over failing to withdraw troops, but at least he would not be responsible for allowing a violent group that even Al Qaeda found intolerably extreme undo what 4500 US troops gave their lives to build. “Well duh” Presidents only want to get reelected, indeed. ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2014, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-airstrikes-give-anti-isis-fighters-an-overwhelming-advantage/701115/39 "2014-10-19T03:31:41Z")
Sorry you don’t get to rewrite history that easily. Obama had to withdraw all troops because the Iraq government refused to agree to a status of forces agreement to keep them there longer. > **[Rewriting History: Conservatives Attack Obama For Withdrawing All Troops From...](https://www.mediamatters.org/weekly-standard/rewriting-history-conservatives-attack-obama-withdrawing-all-troops-iraq)** > > Right-wing media personalities blamed President Obama for recent violence in Iraq, blaming the rise of violent militants in the country on Obama willfully refusing to negotiate a Status of Forces Agreement (SOFA) with Iraqi Prime Minister... ---
**Author:** ![runningdude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e9c0ed/32.png) [@runningdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/runningdude)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2014, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-airstrikes-give-anti-isis-fighters-an-overwhelming-advantage/701115/40 "2014-10-19T20:37:28Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > Sorry you don’t get to rewrite history that easily. > > Obama had to withdraw all troops because the Iraq government refused to agree to a status of forces agreement to keep them there longer. > [Rewriting History: Conservatives Attack Obama For Withdrawing All Troops From Iraq | Media Matters for America](http://mediamatters.org/research/2014/08/10/rewriting-history-conservatives-attack-obama-fo/200380) I am not “rewriting” history; negotiations conveniently failed when it would help the President get reelected if the troops left. I take no pleasure in this. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-airstrikes-give-anti-isis-fighters-an-overwhelming-advantage/701115.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-airstrikes-give-anti-isis-fighters-an-overwhelming-advantage/701115.md?page=3)