# Why can't Biden get more traction from the economy? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [May 18, 2024, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-biden-get-more-traction-from-the-economy/1001736 "2024-05-18T13:12:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 37
**Author:** ![Hawkeyeop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/958977/32.png) [@Hawkeyeop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hawkeyeop)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2024, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-biden-get-more-traction-from-the-economy/1001736/764 "2024-06-10T18:51:39Z")
I really wouldn’t read anything into my capitalization in posts I’m spending a minute on. Fox News averaged two million viewers during primetime from 7-11 p.m. ET. There are 333 people in America give or take. Yes that is a tiny percentage of votes. ---
**Author:** ![Hawkeyeop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/958977/32.png) [@Hawkeyeop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hawkeyeop)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2024, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-biden-get-more-traction-from-the-economy/1001736/765 "2024-06-10T18:52:53Z")
Thinking that people who repeatedly tell you that support Biden are out to get the “left” is weird. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2024, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-biden-get-more-traction-from-the-economy/1001736/766 "2024-06-10T19:00:33Z")
> [@Hawkeyeop](#): > > There are 333 people in America give or take. Yes that is a tiny percentage of votes. Right off the bat, nearly one quarter of that “333 people” are not old enough to legally vote. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2024, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-biden-get-more-traction-from-the-economy/1001736/767 "2024-06-10T19:00:50Z")
What is weird is ignoring an obvious enemy of the left. ---
**Author:** ![Hawkeyeop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/958977/32.png) [@Hawkeyeop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hawkeyeop)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2024, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-biden-get-more-traction-from-the-economy/1001736/768 "2024-06-10T19:02:56Z")
Sure so maybe it is 2 or 3 percent of voters instead of .5 percent. Maybe 5% watch Fox News occasionally. There is no way it gets you to a number that isn’t small minority of voters. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2024, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-biden-get-more-traction-from-the-economy/1001736/769 "2024-06-10T19:03:42Z")
> [@Hawkeyeop](#): > > There are 333 people in America give or take. Say again? ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2024, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-biden-get-more-traction-from-the-economy/1001736/770 "2024-06-10T19:04:26Z")
> [@Hawkeyeop](#): > > Fox News averaged two million viewers during primetime from 7-11 p.m. ET. There are 333 people in America give or take. Yes that is a tiny percentage of votes. For what it’s worth: Fox News’ YouTube channel has 11.3 million subscribers; their Facebook page has 24 million followers. TV rating numbers only tell a portion of the story now, when many people use streaming or social media to get their news. Only about 158 million people actually voted in the 2020 presidential election. Even if we assume that there is a high degree of overlap between Fox News’s TV audience, YouTube subscribers, and Facebook followers, that still means that something like 1 in 6 voters are engaged with Fox News (i.e, _not_ a tiny percentage of votes). And that doesn’t count all of the other hard-right media vehicles. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2024, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-biden-get-more-traction-from-the-economy/1001736/771 "2024-06-10T19:05:52Z")
Now factor in all the other right-wing “news” sources, and what have you got? Once again, NOBODY is claiming that Fox News itself is the problem. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2024, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-biden-get-more-traction-from-the-economy/1001736/772 "2024-06-10T19:07:04Z")
> [@Hawkeyeop](#): > > Most people don’t watch fox or take memes all that seriously. I disagree. I doubt you’ll find many people that aren’t in either the “news” or “social media / pundits” circles on the venn diagram, and the data bares this out. We’ve cited over and over again people mentioning disinformation / memes when polled on questions about the economy, energy, crime, climate change etc. I mean, [a third of Americans](https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2024/01/02/jan-6-poll-post-trump/) believe that the 2020 election was stolen. Where do you think they got that idea? Divine revelation? > [@Hawkeyeop](#): > > I’m just amazed on a board dedicated to fighting ignorance, so many people have trouble with [t]he concept that most people are just generally ignorant about these issues. The irony of this statement… The only thing here that people seem to be having trouble with, is acknowledging the significant role of misinformation. There’s no other block here. No-one has denied that many Americans aren’t in touch with the news. No-one has denied the importance of inflation. But 700 posts in some people just can’t accept that the tens of millions of americans that believe misinformation…have been misinformed. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2024, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-biden-get-more-traction-from-the-economy/1001736/773 "2024-06-10T19:21:50Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > For what it’s worth: Fox News’ YouTube channel has 11.3 million subscribers; their Facebook page has 24 million followers. TV rating numbers only tell a portion of the story now, when many people use streaming or social media to get their news. Those are great stats, I wasn’t aware. And I’ll just add my own FB experience: the MAGA guys enthusiastically share these posts amongst their FB friends, many of whom presumably don’t watch Fox. But they still get polluted by it, and the effect may be exponential, especially if they also share it (and so on). I’m rarely on FB anymore, but you wouldn’t believe the bullshit that gets circulated. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2024, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-biden-get-more-traction-from-the-economy/1001736/774 "2024-06-10T19:30:45Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > For what it’s worth: Fox News’ YouTube channel has 11.3 million subscribers; their Facebook page has 24 million followers. Not to get too nit-picky but those numbers are going to represent a lot of chaff. Accounts that subscribed to FOX News on Facebook in 2008 and the user since stopped using FB or died etc, throwaway accounts, bot accounts and other various “non-users”. Regardless, FOX is of course the giant when it comes to right-wing media and commands considerable attention. And stuff they share on Facebook (for example) will get Liked and Shared by people to users who aren’t subscribers or even especially interested aside from it being on Aunt Matilda’s feed. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2024, 10:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-biden-get-more-traction-from-the-economy/1001736/775 "2024-06-11T10:30:23Z")
> [@Hawkeyeop](#): > > No most people don’t “know” any of this stuff. Funny - I run into a lot of Trump supporters who “know” this stuff. Because even if they don’t actively watch right-wing “news” media, they’re getting it via social media. > [@Hawkeyeop](#): > > Most people don’t watch fox or take memes all that seriously. They really do. > [@Hawkeyeop](#): > > I’m just amazed on a board dedicated to fighting ignorance, so many people have trouble with he concept that most people are just generally ignorant about these issues. People are ignorant about the fine details and nuances of reality. Simplistic messaging that reinforces their pre-existing worldviews, they know all about, even (or especially) when false. > [@Jophiel](#): > > And stuff they share on Facebook (for example) will get Liked and Shared by people to users who aren’t subscribers or even especially interested aside from it being on Aunt Matilda’s feed. And circulated by those with a vested interest in doing so, including some not located in this country. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2024, 11:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-biden-get-more-traction-from-the-economy/1001736/776 "2024-06-11T11:00:48Z")
> [@On another topic](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1002881/1): > > > [@msmith537](#): > > > > But for some reason everything seems harder and more expensive and more uncertain now and we see all these news stories about collapsing banks and billionaires who turn out to be frauds and no one seems to want to do real work but we see all these kids making a fortune as influencers or vloggers or whatever. And all Democrats seem to want to talk about is “diversity” and “transgender equality” and forgiving student loans for kids who went to expensive fancy colleges who somehow still can’t manage to find a job because they are too busy protesting or whatever kids do in college these days. > > This post resonates with me. I think the average person who is down on the economy is probably not going by any official indexes or anything. People just feel like the world sucks in general (can this be debated??) and the economy is a convenient scapegoat for that. The sticker shock at the register and barriers to homeownership aren’t helping either. > > I almost feel like the polls would get us closer to the truth if they asked people to rate their level of trust in the system, including the very media that is cited in this thread. Cynicism is probably at an all-time high. I don’t know what the answer is to this, unfortunately. But if societal trust is low, people are going to feel like exploited pawns of ruthless capitalism even if their financial situation hasn’t actually changed prior to them feeling this way. It’s interesting because even by New York standards, my family’s household income is pretty high and my wife and I are financially and professional successful. But it doesn’t “feel” successful. Even working remotely, there doesn’t feel like enough time to get everything done between work and raising our kids. Everything seems expensive. My company never seems to be doing great financially, and in fact I’m not getting a raise or bonus this year because I didn’t bring in any income for half the year (although that’s better than getting laid off). My client (a large bank) just went through massive layoffs. I don’t feel particularly “old” at 51, but but compared to me Dad’s generation, I think I have to work a lot harder than people did at this point in my career. Or at the very least his generation enjoyed a bit of stability and status from their decades of work (think law partners and executives spending most of their time golfing or holding lunch meetings). And I don’t want to even think about education for our kids. I think a lot of it isn’t so much I feel things are “bad” now. It’s more like SOMETHING bad is going to happen soon. I don’t know what it is. But something. Almost like the economy is built on a house of bullshit that requires greater and greater effort to prop up. So if a family like mine feels insecure about the economic future, I can imagine how most families who make less money might feel, even if they don’t know why. > [@Mijin](#): > > > [@Hawkeyeop](#): > > > > If you ask people a question they will give you an answer. That is kind how people work. > > This is up there as one of the worst arguments I’ve ever come across on this site. > > If you ask people if Godzilla is currently stomping round New York, will 49% of people say “yes”? > > Why is it so hard to acknowledge that misinformation is playing a significant role here? I suppose it’s because misinformation only works if it resonates with what people are actually experiencing or feeling. If New York skyscrapers were suddenly found demolished, people might at least be a bit apprehensive that something that might be confused with Godzilla might be out there. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2024, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-biden-get-more-traction-from-the-economy/1001736/777 "2024-06-11T11:43:16Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Almost like the economy is built on a house of bullshit that requires greater and greater effort to prop up. Yes, it’s called . . . capitalism. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2024, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-biden-get-more-traction-from-the-economy/1001736/778 "2024-06-11T13:35:41Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > I suppose it’s because misinformation only works if it resonates with what people are actually experiencing or feeling. If New York skyscrapers were suddenly found demolished, people might at least be a bit apprehensive that something that might be confused with Godzilla might be out there. On first draft I was going to agree with you, but I think my final response is “yes and no”. RW media _always_ claims that the economy is in meltdown when there’s a Democratic president. Stephen Moore, who I linked upthread talking about Biden’s “war on oil and gas” talked a lot about how Obama “bankrupted” the economy, even [wrote a book](https://www.amazon.co.uk/Barack-Bankrupting-Economy-Encounter-Broadsides/dp/1594034648) about it. And, interestingly, FOX said many of the things we’ve heard in this thread about the [wrong kind of jobs](https://www.foxbusiness.com/video/5273016621001) being created. But it didn’t really land with the general public. Because, at the end of the day, the economy did well and there wasn’t anything substantial that conservative media could really point to as a foundation for spreading misinformation. Under Biden, inflation is that substantial thing. It’s a real problem, that we all experience. And it’s a great hook for the other stuff, the unmitigated BS, which now starts to _land_. That’s the sense in which I agree. The sense that I disagree is simply if we start to look at issues other than the economy. e.g. on climate change. If you watch RW media or regularly receive conservative social media, you’ll likely believe a whole pile of crap about climate change. A lot of misconceptions and debunked talking points. And that’s something where, once again, there isn’t really a hook for the disinformation; we’re getting record-breaking temperatures, year after year, and the US is suffering some of the worst extremes, which americans experience directly. Yet this disinformation lands also. It makes me think the media bubble is more important than the grain of truth. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2024, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-biden-get-more-traction-from-the-economy/1001736/779 "2024-06-11T14:00:11Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > we’re getting record-breaking temperatures, year after year, and the US is suffering some of the worst extremes, which americans experience directly. That’s because Biden allowed 500 air conditioners to be stolen! ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2024, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-biden-get-more-traction-from-the-economy/1001736/780 "2024-06-11T15:42:54Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > > [@msmith537](#): > > > > I suppose it’s because misinformation only works if it resonates with what people are actually experiencing or feeling. If New York skyscrapers were suddenly found demolished, people might at least be a bit apprehensive that something that might be confused with Godzilla might be out there. > > On first draft I was going to agree with you, but I think my final response is “yes and no”. > > RW media _always_ claims that the economy is in meltdown when there’s a Democratic president. Stephen Moore, who I linked upthread talking about Biden’s “war on oil and gas” talked a lot about how Obama “bankrupted” the economy, even [wrote a book](https://www.amazon.co.uk/Barack-Bankrupting-Economy-Encounter-Broadsides/dp/1594034648) about it. > And, interestingly, FOX said many of the things we’ve heard in this thread about the [wrong kind of jobs](https://www.foxbusiness.com/video/5273016621001) being created. > > But it didn’t really land with the general public. Because, at the end of the day, the economy did well and there wasn’t anything substantial that conservative media could really point to as a foundation for spreading misinformation. > > Under Biden, inflation is that substantial thing. It’s a real problem, that we all experience. And it’s a great hook for the other stuff, the unmitigated BS, which now starts to _land_. > > That’s the sense in which I agree. > The sense that I disagree is simply if we start to look at issues other than the economy. e.g. on climate change. If you watch RW media or regularly receive conservative social media, you’ll likely believe a whole pile of crap about climate change. A lot of misconceptions and debunked talking points. > > And that’s something where, once again, there isn’t really a hook for the disinformation; we’re getting record-breaking temperatures, year after year, and the US is suffering some of the worst extremes, which americans experience directly. > Yet this disinformation lands also. It makes me think the media bubble is more important than the grain of truth. I would also say “yes and no”. From the perspective of my elderly dim-witted conservative inlaws, they are retired, live out in the boonies, and rarely travel more than a dozen miles from home or interact with people outside of their small circle. And they were never particularly financially or professionally successful. Probably in large part to their inability to imagine anything outside of what they “know” or immediately experience. So in their mind, they “know” Democrats are bad with business and soft on immigration so their single data point of the price of produce just reinforces that the economy is bad. ---
**Author:** ![Hawkeyeop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/958977/32.png) [@Hawkeyeop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hawkeyeop)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2024, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-biden-get-more-traction-from-the-economy/1001736/781 "2024-06-11T16:17:53Z")
Climate change I think is a good comparison. There is a minority of people who think climate change is not real. I think it is safe to say those people have been influenced by misinformation. They probably also believe the economy is terrible and it is all Biden’s fault. The majority of people though think the climate change is real and a significant problem. There also is an inverse relationship with age. The younger you are the more you believe in climate change being a significant issue. This is the opposite skew of opinion on the economy. So a younger person is both more likely to agree climate change is a problem and more likely to have a negative feeling on the economy. So what do we think causes this opposite skew? Do we think memes have more disinformation related to the economy than climate change? Or is actual economic conditions that are causing young people to think poorly of the economy and Biden. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2024, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-biden-get-more-traction-from-the-economy/1001736/782 "2024-06-11T16:22:50Z")
> [@Hawkeyeop](#): > > I personally think it is way more uninformed than misinformed. If you ask people similar factual questions that are not politized you are still going to get wildly inaccurate answers. The answers we’re getting are not simply wildly inaccurate. They are wildly skewed on one single direction. The direction that the Republican media is pushing - must just be coincidence, eh? ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2024, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-biden-get-more-traction-from-the-economy/1001736/783 "2024-06-11T16:33:34Z")
> [@Hawkeyeop](#): > > So what do we think causes this opposite skew? Do we think memes have more disinformation related to the economy than climate change? Or is actual economic conditions that are causing young people to think poorly of the economy and Biden. I think it gets complicated with this kind of multi-factor analysis; we need some kind of excel wizard to join tables. Because firstly we have to find the baseline; how do the young’s feelings on the economy compare to older generations normally? I’m finding it hard to google, but e.g. there are polls from 2019 saying that 49% of Americans [have at least one immediate worry such as paying their rent or mortgage](https://news.gallup.com/opinion/polling-matters/260570/despite-economic-success-financial-anxiety-remains.aspx). Presumably that 49% is going to skew younger, to people who haven’t bought a home or paid off their mortgage. Then we have to factor against the polls saying that feelings on the economy are highly correlated with political leanings (a better correlation than with age), so we’re talking young _conservatives_ being the most negative, and I am thinking a lot of those people will agree with things like “war on oil and gas” _as well as_ suffering difficulty getting on the housing ladder. In summary, it’s complicated. I think the bigger issue with Biden failing to get traction is the new media landscape (because, as I say, look at views on climate change, crime etc), but I don’t discount other factors. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-biden-get-more-traction-from-the-economy/1001736.md?page=36) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-biden-get-more-traction-from-the-economy/1001736.md?page=38)