Why can't Frankenstein's monster be black?

[Marley23]

@WhyNot

The fact is, Elizabethian English refered to “Black Moors” (African) and “White Moors” (Arab) but Shakespear wasn’t specific in his script. All the references to “Dark” and “Black” and “Sooty” and “Thick lips” make me pretty convinced that he was and that the “Othello wasn’t black” argument is thinly disguised racism and cultural rewriting, but there are always those ready to make the argument.

The only one who talks about Othello in this grotesque physical manner (“thicklips,” “black ram,” etc.) is Iago. It’s possible he’s going overboard with these descriptions because he’s obsessed. I’ve heard Shakespeare scholars make these arguments and racism is not a factor. Nice thing to say, though. Since actual black actors playing Othello is a comparatively recent thing, I think you can go back through history and see productions that portrayed him as an Arab or Berber, a black man, or other ‘foreign’ things.

@WhyNot

Whether he was African or Arabic, it’s clear from the script that he was unsuitable for Desdemonia based on his race.

Right. A North African Arab would be just as unsuitable as a black African, I think. As long as Othello is obviously different from everybody else, the story should still work even if the terminology doesn’t apply. Like WhyNot says further down, it does all depend on the story. Some plays are very specific to a time and place, others aren’t.

[Miller]

@CalMeacham

She certainly looks black to me. I thought, in fact, that that was one of his more interesting twists.

Huh. I never noticed that before. I just looked at it now, though, and she certainly could be black. Hard to tell with the color palette they used in that book, though.

[WhyNot]

@Marley23

The only one who talks about Othello in this grotesque physical manner (“thicklips,” “black ram,” etc.) is Iago. It’s possible he’s going overboard with these descriptions because he’s obsessed. I’ve heard Shakespeare scholars make these arguments and racism is not a factor. Nice thing to say, though. Since actual black actors playing Othello is a comparatively recent thing, I think you can go back through history and see productions that portrayed him as an Arab or Berber, a black man, or other ‘foreign’ things.
Right. A North African Arab would be just as unsuitable as a black African, I think. As long as Othello is obviously different from everybody else, the story should still work even if the terminology doesn’t apply. Like WhyNot says further down, it does all depend on the story. Some plays are very specific to a time and place, others aren’t.

Doesn’t Othello himself say something like “I am black” and later bemoan that Desdamona is turning as “black” as himself? Or was that Iago? It’s been a long time since I’ve read it.

Even so, one would expect one of Iago’s listeners to say something to the Elizabethan effect of “Dude! What are you talking about? Othello ain’t black! Go switch to decaf, my brother!” if his remarks weren’t true.

The reason I smell racism in the “Othello isn’t black” argument is that it often raises the “point” that Othello was prince and a learned man and how could an African possibly be either of those? Excuse me? Africans (especially northern Africans at the time) had wise, powerful, learned black men who were well versed in European ways. They weren’t (and aren’t) all “ignorant savages” or slaves. The very fact that even scholars would be concerned enough with the ambiguous issue to research and keep talking about it for decades makes me wonder why they are so uncomfortable with the idea of a strong, capable (albeit moody) black man who is a military leader and marries a very, very pale-skinned white woman. Why do they have to go through such mental gymnastics and find imaginary loopholes to reassure themselves that Othello was “only” an Arab? Is it simply because the idea of a powerful black man and a white woman is (or was when the discussion started) too distasteful to bear? That sounds racist to me. In fact, it sounds like a page from Guess Who’s Coming To Dinner. YMMV.

[Lamia]

@Aesiron

Also, delphica, I like your remimagining of Look Who’s Coming to Dinner. I imagine it would make a lot of us squirm now like Poiter’s version in the sixties made our parents and grandparents.

After my friend failed to get a part in that play, I told her that someday I’d write a sequel to Look Who’s Coming to Dinner in which I’d cast her as the daughter of the young couple from the original. She’d test their tolerance by coming home from Wellesley with another woman.

[DocCathode]

@holmes

I have three images of Thor. One is the traditional version, the other Marvel’s Blonde version. Both are white, they are after; all Norse Gods. But and this is the interesting thing, I have a third image of Thor formed when I was kid. Thor could be Black, White, Asian, a Woman, even an Alien. This multi-cultural image comes from the inscription on Mjolnir (Thor’s Hammer) which reads “Whomsoever holds this hammer, if he be worthy, shall possess the power of Thor.” It seemed clear to me, anyone worthy, can be a version of Thor. Am I out of luck, my movie a failure, because my Thor doesn’t resemble people’s image of what a Norse God should look like?

If you don’t know about Beta Ray Bill, you know so little about the Marvel Comics Thor that you have no business making a movie about him.

Other than that, make the character any color, shape etc you want. Just don’t call him Thor.

Should I only limit my search to Blondes because that’s the image that many people have of Thor, even though he was really a Redhead?

No. Just limit the search to people who can believably be fitted with blonde wigs.

Does it flow in only one direction? DC Vixen gets her power from a mystic amulet. Cleary anyone “worthy” should be able to be vixen, do I cast only an African woman for the role?

If she ain’t black, she ain’t Vixen.

If so then, why?

Bacause that’s who the characters are and have been for so long.

Do I have a responsibility to protect the few non-white role models, while at the same time expand the market which may require altering the white ones?

Why alter the white ones?

When casting, ask what about the character’s appearance is important. Arguments could be made for having Captain Ahab be played by an actor who isn’t white. But Ahab absolutely must be played with one leg. While a story can be transported in space or time, some casting choices just don’t work in the original setting. As has been said, Victor Frankenstein would have to travel quite a distance to find black people to scavenge for parts. IIRC The original work has the monster’s skin stretched too tight, and rotted yellow.

Live actions adaptations of comics and cartoons are not good places for colorblind casting because the characters are strongly associated with an image. Other than the abomination already linked to, Lois Lane has spent several decades not being black. Batman has spent a long time not being blonde, and I’m still pissed that Kilmer wasn’t made to wear a wig.

RE Batman Year One

IMHO she isn’t clearly anything. She may be black, hispanic, white or a few other things.

[lawoot]

Re: Guess WHo’s Coming to Dinner:

I saw a trailer last week for Guess Who, a remake with Bernie Mac in the Spencer Tracy role.

The trailer is at apple.com.

[Askia]

DocCathode. Thor is historically a rather dim-witted storm deity. The Marvel Comics version is a blonde ubermensch. I prefer that my Norse gods don’t speak pigdin Stan Lee invented Elizabethean English.

Palatte issues aside, there’s nothing in the actual comic book TEXT of Batman: year One to indicate Selina Kyle is intended to be a person of color, so I stand behind my opinion that she’s white. Unlike Jeph Loeb, it clearly never occurred to Miller to make Kyle of Italian descent.

Vixen could and should be subject to colorblind casting since her power isn’t innate and any cultural significance of the Tantu Totem is long since downplayed. But it would almost certainly never happen and I would bitch relentlessly if it did, by some fluke.

[DocCathode]

@Askia

DocCathode. Thor is historically a rather dim-witted storm deity. The Marvel Comics version is a blonde ubermensch. I prefer that my Norse gods don’t speak pigdin Stan Lee invented Elizabethean English.

Which is why I used the phrase “Marvel Comics Thor” rather than just Thor. To be accurate with the poetry and prose Eddas

Thor should have a below normal IQ.

He should kill giants (whether Jottun, giant robots, or anything else his tiny brain might think were Jottun) more often.

He should be drunk frequently.

He should become angry over minor slights, and kill whoever angered him.

He should wear a magic belt which gives him greater strength.

He should be a red head.

He should have a beard.

Also, Mjolnir’s handle should be shorter (due to the interference of Loki who turned into a gadfly and stung one of the dwarves making it.)

Come to think of it, if Thor has Mjolnir then all the stories in the comic take place after Loki has stolen Sif’s hair and bargained for a golden replacement. So, Sif should be blonde.

Of course, Loki isn’t bound in some pit with chains made from the innards of one of his sons while venom drips into Sigyn’s cup. Neither is Fenris bound by Glepnir (Even though IIRC the Marvel Comics Tyr has one hand)

Balder, and his wife, shoudl be dead.

Hel should be either half corpse or half withered crone.

Even in elementary school, I knew that Lee and Kirby’s Thor was not an accurate representation of the Norse myths. It helped that the local library had a copy of DeLaurie’s Book Of Norse Myths.

If somebody wants to create a Thor movie which is mythologically accurate, fine. But, if they want to make a movie of Marvel Comic’s Thor, I expect a blonde, cleanshaven guy who speaks bad renfest English, has a helmet with wings on it, a red cape, and that leotard with six circles.

[Odesio]

Does it matter? Yes. The established appearance and general background of an iconic character should be taken into account when casting a motion picture. I do feel casting directions should have some leeway but there are limits. For example Superman should not be a skinny white guy with a west Texas twang.

Marc

[Sir_Doris]

@WhyNot

Doesn’t Othello himself say something like “I am black” and later bemoan that Desdamona is turning as “black” as himself? Or was that Iago? It’s been a long time since I’ve read it.

He refers to himself as black, and refers to his good name as being “begrim’d and black as mine own face”. Desdemona is referred to as a “black weed”, IIRC. However, black would tend to be used to describe anyone who wasn’t white, so it doesn’t exclude the possibility of an Arabic Othello.

Back to the OP, I guess some people will feel more uncomfortable with changes to what has been specified than others. We’ve tended to focus on physical appearance, but what about accents, as mentioned by MGibson? With Thor, we have to suspend disbelief since obviously Thor wouldn’t speak English, but why should “Marvel Thor” have some approximation of an archaic English accent? Why is Shakespeare so often delivered in a Sir Lawrence Olivier RP-style (in the UK, anyway).

What of the Hollywood’s tendancy to Americanize stories which are set in other anglophone nations, for example? I imagine that it jars more with the British that the film U571 is based on events involving the capture of the enigma codes by British ships, but has been changed to make the heroes American. As I understand, JK Rowling herself insisted Harry Potter must use a British cast to avoid the casting of American children in the major roles. On the other hand, it doesn’t bother me that pretty much all the heroes in Disney cartoons have American accents no matter where they’re set (and the villains tend to have British accents, come to that)? And yes, I know you folks will come up with loads of exceptions

[Askia]

@Sir Doris

He refers to himself as black, and refers to his good name as being “begrim’d and black as mine own face”. Desdemona is referred to as a “black weed”, IIRC. However, black would tend to be used to describe anyone who wasn’t white, so it doesn’t exclude the possibility of an Arabic Othello.

Hmmm. Wikipedia says that in heraldry, Moors are depicted as sub-Sahara Africans. So, echoing my earlier post on the matter, while it’s historically accurate to say that Moors are Arabic and that Othello might conceivably be olive-skinned, I think it’s more probable Shakespeare intended Othello to be a dark-skinned African. Conparing the blackness of one’s skin tone to the darkness of one’s besmirched reputation seems to confirm that, not to mention it’s simply more visually compelling to contrast Othello’s “otherness” the deeper the skin contrast between he and fair-skinned Desdemona and the rest of the cast.

[Sir_Doris]

We can’t do any more than second guess what Shakespeare intended, and indeed the clues we have would to my mind indicate someone dark skinned. As for the Wikipedia definition, sub saharan Africans aren’t an homogenous bunch, are they? There’s plenty of variety in skin tones, as there is among Arabs. If we take the Wikipedia definition of Arab, it doesn’t preclude an Arab being black.

However, my point, which I’ve strayed from, is that a not so dark skinned Othello wouldn’t really detract from the play, just so long as he was obviously darker than the rest of the cast. YMMV, of course.

[DocCathode]

@Sir Doris

What of the Hollywood’s tendancy to Americanize stories which are set in other anglophone nations, for example? I imagine that it jars more with the British that the film U571 is based on events involving the capture of the enigma codes by British ships, but has been changed to make the heroes American.

I’m very unhappy with this. This is rewriting historical fact in order to get better box office. In general, I don’t want things Americanized. If the director hasn’t relocated Macbeth, I want plausibly Scottish caucasians speaking with consistent and plausible Scottish accents.

As I understand, JK Rowling herself insisted Harry Potter must use a British cast to avoid the casting of American children in the major roles.

Why exactly was she against that? If they looked properly British and could do the accents well enough, I fail to see the problem. After seeing Bob Hoskins in Roger Rabbit and a few other films, I thought he was an American. But, the voice he does so well (and again, so consistently) as Eddie Valiant, isn’t his.

[QUOTEOn the other hand, it doesn’t bother me that pretty much all the heroes in Disney cartoons have American accents no matter where they’re set (and the villains tend to have British accents, come to that)? And yes, I know you folks will come up with loads of exceptions :p[/QUOTE]

Probably. But, OTTOMH I’d say that you have a point. Again, OTTOMH, I’d say Disney is playing up a stereotype of an emotionally distant, aristocratic/snobby, other. It’s been a while since I’ve seen their Hunchback Of Notre Dam. But, the only accented (to the American ear) voices I remember are Clopin the jester, and the aristocratic, snobby, emotionally distant Claude Frollo.

[Horatio_Hellpop]

Here in DC about five years ago, Patrick Stewart played Othello. Iago, Desdemona and the rest of the characters were played by black actors.

You can do whatever you want, have anyone play anybody, and set Oklahoma! in space if you feel like it. Keep in mind, though, that a lot of people in the audience have never seen this play before and may never see it again. You have a vague obligation to stick closely enough to the author’s intent that everyone in your audience will be able to say “Yes, I’ve seen __________” regardless of the liberties you’ve taken with it.

[Marley23]

@WhyNot

Even so, one would expect one of Iago’s listeners to say something to the Elizabethan effect of “Dude! What are you talking about? Othello ain’t black! Go switch to decaf, my brother!” if his remarks weren’t true.

I imagine the thinking would be “dark is dark,” as long as he’s darker than the white cast. I have no idea how the role would’ve been played in 1600, but it should be obvious there were no black or Arab actors in the King’s Men. If they used makeup, it could’ve been pitch black or just olive-ish; I’m sure the audience wouldn’t have cared.

The reason I smell racism in the “Othello isn’t black” argument is that it often raises the “point” that Othello was prince and a learned man and how could an African possibly be either of those? Excuse me?

I can’t speak for people you’ve met and I haven’t, but it seems to me that Othello was likely educated by the people who taught him English and converted him to Christianity.

Why do they have to go through such mental gymnastics and find imaginary loopholes to reassure themselves that Othello was “only” an Arab? Is it simply because the idea of a powerful black man and a white woman is (or was when the discussion started) too distasteful to bear?

Look- you’re making a bunch of extremely judgmental comments about people you don’t know. From where I sit, it reads as oversensitive. The interpretation seems legit to me, and the Prof I remember arguing Othello didn’t have to be black didn’t seem racist in any way. Othello has not always been played as a black African, so critics making this point do have some history on their side.

[msmith537]

One word:

Blackula

[WhyNot]

Marley23, perhaps it’s oversensitivity on my part (although I’m a white chick, so it’s nothing personal to me), but I have the same “why is this even such and argument?” reaction to the “Jesus couldn’t have been black” debate. It’s not so much that the question exists that bugs me, as that so many of the people saying Jesus and Othello couldn’t (not weren’t, but couldn’t) have been black cite reasons like education and class for doing so. The fact is that Africans were and are highly educated. There were highly respected Africans in Queen Elizabeth’s court. To presume that they weren’t African is not only ignorant of history, but assuming that all our slaves were in fact ignorant savages and always had been, and that African men were always brutish and uncivilized. That may make us white folk feel better about our history, but it’s intellectually dishonest.

Have you heard any other arguments as to why Othello couldn’t have been African? I haven’t. If you have, I stand ready to re-evaluate my thoughts on the matter.

I agree with you that all that matters is that Othello’s skin be of a darker hue than the rest of the cast. Whether he’s Arab or African is essentially unimportant and also unprovable, due to the ambiguities in Elizabethan English. Which is why I can’t fathom a reason for the debate other than racism. If someone wants to cast a Nordic Othello, it’s fine by me (as long as the choice supports the theme of the play), but I find it difficult to agree that Shakespear didn’t write the character as African.

But back to the OP: Hey, guess what’s on PBS tonight! Othello, with traditional colored casting, but set in modern day London with modern day language. I haven’t seen it, but I plan to. Let’s see how far “tinkering” can go and still earn the title.

[SteveG1]

@DocCathode

If somebody wants to create a Thor movie which is mythologically accurate, fine. But, if they want to make a movie of Marvel Comic’s Thor, I expect a blonde, cleanshaven guy who speaks bad renfest English, has a helmet with wings on it, a red cape, and that leotard with six circles.

I agree. The Thor of myth was a hot tempered giant of a man, with red hair, a full beard, and a huge appetite for beer and ale. Get rid of the winged helmet - not practical in a fight; give him a proper Viking helmet without the horns, wings and other junk. They can dispense with the nonsense of his hammer being used by someone else also - worthy or not. Wasn’t part of Mjolner’s power, that it was far too heavy for anyone else to use, except maybe for its original maker?

[Marley23]

@WhyNot

I have the same “why is this even such and argument?” reaction to the “Jesus couldn’t have been black” debate.

Maybe some people say that because they’re racist, but the fact is he couldn’t have unless there’s something I haven’t heard. People from that part of the world aren’t black.

Some of the arguments you’re recall do sound like they could be racist. I don’t see how they would even be relevant. If I remember correctly that Othello was a slave, I’m sure he would have been educated by the people he worked for.

@WhyNot

Have you heard any other arguments as to why Othello couldn’t have been African? I haven’t.

I’ve only heard one, and that’s that “Moor” didn’t mean “black African.” Which other posters here have agreed with. I’ve never heard anybody say he couldn’t have been black. He’s been played by plenty of black guys and obviously it isn’t a problem. I’ve heard it said that Shakespeare possibly or probably didn’t have a black African in mind, but nothing stronger than that.

@WhyNot

If you have, I stand ready to re-evaluate my thoughts on the matter.

Many of the people who come up with and make these arguments are Shakespeare scholars. Researching specifics and reading deeply into things is what they do. There doesn’t have to be a sinister motive for them to nitpick.

[holmes]

@DocCathode

Why alter the white ones?

I’m not sure i understand your question. I guess to allow talented people, the ability to work, without the continued constraints of racism and sexism. Those issues, denied them the ability to be considered worthy of creating characters that looked like them in first place. It seems incredibly unfair to forever deny talented actors the ability to work in certain roles; because in the past, it was inconceivable that people other that white men, could be worth writing about or writing for.

It nice to create new and interesting characters, however we at least a century of great characters, whose only feature is the color of their skin or sex or height, none of which may important to the character itself.

There’s a new Kojak on USA. Now I remember Kojak and part of his charm, I believe was based on Telly Savalas’ kojak look and attitude, which is strongly related to the character’s image. I don’t think I’m stretching, if I say that if you ask most people about Kojak they have a firm idea in their heads of what he looks like. Ving Rhames doesn’t instantly pop into their heads; however I think an injustic would have occured, if Mr. Rhames walked to read for the role and was told he couldn’t have it because Kojak was white.