# Why can't I play craps at Indian Casinos? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 7, 2010, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-i-play-craps-at-indian-casinos/552953 "2010-09-07T18:53:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![dalej42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@dalej42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dalej42)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2010, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-i-play-craps-at-indian-casinos/552953/1 "2010-09-07T18:53:13Z")
I’ve only been to Indian casinos in Arizona, but I’ve never seen one which offered craps. Is it just because of the large area and staffing needs that the game isn’t profitable enough when they could have a row of slot machines there? Is it because of the low house edge? Are there actual laws prohibiting craps? I’ve also never seen a roulette table, but I’ve seen the video version. I assume the video one is there because it is less expensive for the casino and not because of any laws prohibiting a physical roulette wheel. ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2010, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-i-play-craps-at-indian-casinos/552953/2 "2010-09-07T19:54:36Z")
Check the Arizon gaming laws. Sometimes the odds for a particular game, may make it illegal. ---
**Author:** ![Yarster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/7c8e57/32.png) [@Yarster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yarster)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2010, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-i-play-craps-at-indian-casinos/552953/3 "2010-09-07T20:30:53Z")
Here in California they do have real roulette at the Indian casinos but the version of craps they have is something weird that is done with cards. My understanding is that there is indeed a law preventing the game in the Indian casinos here that I’m guessing the Las Vegas casinos had a hand in creating/lobbying to prevent competition, but that’s just speculation on my part. Meanwhile, when the Indian craps games originally came out, the local Barona casino had four tables at one point, but the popularity has dropped off quite a bit, and now I only see one. Something about the house having to deal the cards rather than you throwing the dice really takes away from the fallacy the player has some control over it and ruined the game. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2010, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-i-play-craps-at-indian-casinos/552953/4 "2010-09-07T20:35:17Z")
I wonder if it’s not that slot machines are one of the more profitable endeavors for casinos. They don’t take up much space, they work 24/7 shifts without complaint. I’ve heard that they represent more than 50% of the revenue for a casino. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2010, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-i-play-craps-at-indian-casinos/552953/5 "2010-09-07T20:40:19Z")
Some places only offer video gaming machines because it is part of the state lottery system, really no different then scratch off lottery tickets, just with another ‘face’ on it. Perhaps you are in a area that the state lotto is the only gambling allowed, which would rule out human run games such as craps and roulette. ---
**Author:** ![dalej42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@dalej42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dalej42)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2010, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-i-play-craps-at-indian-casinos/552953/6 "2010-09-07T21:17:55Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Some places only offer video gaming machines because it is part of the state lottery system, really no different then scratch off lottery tickets, just with another ‘face’ on it. Perhaps you are in a area that the state lotto is the only gambling allowed, which would rule out human run games such as craps and roulette. They have blackjack with human dealers. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2010, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-i-play-craps-at-indian-casinos/552953/7 "2010-09-07T22:40:41Z")
I don’t know about Arizona but I’ve read that Canadian gambling laws specifically prohibit games that use dice. ---
**Author:** ![chrisk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@chrisk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chrisk)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2010, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-i-play-craps-at-indian-casinos/552953/8 "2010-09-07T22:43:53Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I don’t know about Arizona but I’ve read that Canadian gambling laws specifically prohibit games that use dice. That’s surprising, because when I went to Casino Niagara a few months ago, they did have a big ol’ craps table with dice. I thought about placing a bet, but it was busy and confusing, and no matter how long I waited for one particular ‘point’ to end it never did. So I lost around eighty bucks on the roulette table instead. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2010, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-i-play-craps-at-indian-casinos/552953/9 "2010-09-07T22:47:58Z")
Looks like it varies according to where you are. At the Silverstar/Golden Moon casinos in Philladelphia, MS, there is craps, roulette, blackjack, three card poker etc, same as you’ll find in any other casino in the area. The only real difference is that the Indian casinos have the dealer stand on a soft 17 in blackjack, where most other places have the dealer hit a soft 17. ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2010, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-i-play-craps-at-indian-casinos/552953/10 "2010-09-07T23:34:41Z")
> [@dalej42](#): > > They have blackjack with human dealers. Cite? How do you know they’re _real_ humans? ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2010, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-i-play-craps-at-indian-casinos/552953/11 "2010-09-07T23:48:25Z")
I know that in California, card games were classified as “games of skill.” That allowed some cities to establish card parlors. These rules seem to have carried over into the Indian Gaming compacts, so you’ll see slots (which required a special exemption), poker, blackjack and the like, but no craps or roulette. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2010, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-i-play-craps-at-indian-casinos/552953/12 "2010-09-07T23:56:40Z")
> [@Yarster](#): > > Here in California they do have real roulette at the Indian casinos but the version of craps they have is something weird that is done with cards. I don’t gamble, but you’ve piqued my curiosity (I’m a games buff). Can anyone give the rules for this particular game? ---
**Author:** ![Doctor\_Who](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ed8c4c/32.png) [@Doctor\_Who](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doctor_Who)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2010, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-i-play-craps-at-indian-casinos/552953/13 "2010-09-08T00:01:13Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > > [@Yarster](#): > > > > Here in California they do have real roulette at the Indian casinos but the version of craps they have is something weird that is done with cards. > > I don’t gamble, but you’ve piqued my curiosity (I’m a games buff). Can anyone give the rules for this particular game? Yes, IIRC it’s a quirk of California gaming law that games of chance cannot be decided by rolling dice. So here’s what they do: Take two sets of cards from A-6. Shuffle up each set and set them down in two rows of 6. Shooter rolls the dice. Say he rolls a 4 on one dice and a 2 on the other. Flip over the fourth card on the first set of cards. Flip over the second card on the second set of cards. Whatever number comes up on the cards is what you actually rolled. So if the first card is a 6 and the second card is an Ace, you just rolled a 7. Where I played they had the cards and the particular die color-coded. It’s sort of odd rolling the dice, then waiting for them to flip the cards over to see what you rolled. Aside from that little quirk, it’s just plain old craps.’ Here’s an article about another way they run it: [http://www.sfexaminer.com/lifestyle/Card-craps-have-big-bonus-95034349.html](http://www.sfexaminer.com/lifestyle/Card-craps-have-big-bonus-95034349.html) (This is different than the way I described it above.) ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2010, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-i-play-craps-at-indian-casinos/552953/14 "2010-09-08T00:03:12Z")
They use two decks of card with all the sevens through face cards removed. There are enough of every other number to simulate the roll of a die. The players bet normally, then the dealer turns over a card from each deck, representing the numbers on a faces of a pair of dice. eta: ninjaed by Dr. Who. ---
**Author:** ![Meeko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Meeko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meeko)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2010, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-i-play-craps-at-indian-casinos/552953/15 "2010-09-08T00:59:15Z")
> [@Rhythmdvl](#): > > > [@dalej42](#): > > > > They have blackjack with human dealers. > > Cite? > > How do you know they’re _real_ humans? In N.C. There are human dealers. However, [they don’t deal a darn thing.](http://www.harrahscherokee.com/casinos/harrahs-cherokee/casino-misc/digital-blackjack-detail.html) From the link: Our _ **digital version** _ of this popular game includes live dealers, real chips, a six deck shoe, and Las Vegas rules to create an exciting table games experience for our guests. Emphasis mine. AL has Bingo Casinos. All games that Appear to be anything else is Bingo, with a lot of window dressing. The “Slots” have gone so far as to have two screens per machine, one at sitting eye level, one at 8 feet or so. The top machine plays [and automatically daubs] bingo cards. The second eye level screen shows reels, for entertainment purposes only. [The high ups in AL aren’t so keen on it anymore.](http://www.victoryland.com/old/schedule.htm) Check the spoiler for text from this link. ## On Monday, August 9, 2010, VictoryLand Greyhound Park was faced with being illegally raided by the Governor’s illegal gambling task force. One can simply type our name into any popular search engine and follow the on-going shenanigans and threats by the state’s self-appointed Czar. The Alabama Supreme Court ruled that such action by the Governor’s office was based simply and solely on the “opinion” of the Governor. Without going into the details of this madness; VictoryLand, along with other facilities, have been forced to either close or reduce operation. With that said, effective with the reopening on Thursday, August 12, 2010 VictoryLand is currently operating as a pari-mutuel only facility with live greyhound wagering along with simulcast greyhound and thoroughbred wagering from facilities throughout America. **In short, blame the laws. Reservation Law, County Law, or State.** Laws give casinos an inch, and they eke out every last foot of their mile, tweaking and stretching the math, bells and whistles to approximate the real deal. More often than not, they are dead on with the odds of Las Vegas games, they just take the scenic route to get there. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2010, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-i-play-craps-at-indian-casinos/552953/16 "2010-09-08T01:03:22Z")
Here in WA all the Indian casinos have regular craps tables. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2010, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-i-play-craps-at-indian-casinos/552953/17 "2010-09-08T01:56:30Z")
Of course an Indian Casino isn’t bound by State Law, but there is often a set of treaties and deals that limit their games. It’s very much to the Tribes advantage to not piss the State off. For example, generally you’d want _roads_ going into your tribal lands, eh?