# Why can't I volunteer to get paid below minimum wage? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 2, 2013, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-i-volunteer-to-get-paid-below-minimum-wage/675262 "2013-12-02T02:47:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-i-volunteer-to-get-paid-below-minimum-wage/675262/181 "2013-12-03T03:57:00Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Yes, these are real concerns as practiced by some real individuals. But the real-world workplace includes many individuals who do not. They look at other factors and paying less money is one of them. We know this is true because it has always been true and is true even in a world with a minimum wage. In virtually all ranges of businesses there are those who compete on quality and service and those who compete on price. Those who compete on price almost universally take the largest share of the market and therefore provide the largest number of jobs. > > There is certainly enough economic evidence to convince me that minimum wage does not destroy jobs. But even without that, I could look at both history and current practice across a wide range of businesses to convince me that your attitude is oversimplistic and utopian. The world as a whole simply does not work that way. Actually, it does. If it didn’t, mostly everyone would make minimum wage =, wouldn’t they, as it represents the way to pay the least money out. Look at every person not in a union making more than minimum wage. No one mandated that they be paid those higher wages. My employers paid me based on my skills, attitude, and what I could negotiate. And every increase in salary was what I could negotiate based on my contribution, initiative, attitude, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Farin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e79b87/32.png) [@Farin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farin)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-i-volunteer-to-get-paid-below-minimum-wage/675262/182 "2013-12-03T04:16:06Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Actually, it does. If it didn’t, mostly everyone would make minimum wage =, wouldn’t they, as it represents the way to pay the least money out. Look at every person not in a union making more than minimum wage. No one mandated that they be paid those higher wages. My employers paid me based on my skills, attitude, and what I could negotiate. And every increase in salary was what I could negotiate based on my contribution, initiative, attitude, etc. Because we are in the middle of the slide. Our current MW buys less than half of what it did in 1960. And companies that come in and upset industries take everyone with them. Look at retail. It’s the first in the race to the bottom because of the lower-skill workers. And it’s been spreading to other low-skill workers. The problem is, as the low skill workers get more competitive, companies get better workers who are at the bottom of the next rung. These people are more capable. Especially after this recession, I’ve seen people with skills take administrative assistant jobs paying around 35-40k per year. Not destitute, but not awesome. Half of them have proven that they are the bee’s knees, and have moved from the AA role to another role…without a raise to that role’s historical pay level. One guy I know went from 40K to 45K to take over a sales gig (that he was fully qualified for and had a history of being a sales guy in that sales market). Two years ago, that job had a stated starting rate of 60K for junior sales guys. Now? The guy he’s replacing was making double than he is. This sort of thing has been going on for awhile. A lot of companies, for instance, will have no problem hiring a guy from the outside into the organization at $100,000 for a position. But if you were promoted from within to that position, you could only get +10-15% of your current salary as a raise. So if you started at $40,000, you’d get a maximum bump up to $46,000. The reason you can still negotiate salaries and such is because the race to the bottom hasn’t reached your field. Yet. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-i-volunteer-to-get-paid-below-minimum-wage/675262/183 "2013-12-03T04:44:20Z")
It’s “different now” _because_ of all these labor laws you’re talking about. It’s the ultimate, “those who don’t learn from the past are doomed to repeat it.” We tried it your way. It sucked. > [@Terr](#): > > If the parent thinks it’s ok for the child to work, the state has no business interfering. Welfare of the child is the parent’s responsibility, except for extreme cases. If you’re talking about an extreme case, I may agree on the state interfering. There’s a [reason](http://www.buzzfeed.com/briangalindo/30-shocking-photos-of-child-labor-between-1908-and-1916) for child labor laws. [More](http://www.loc.gov/pictures/search/?st=grid&co=nclc). :dubious: THAT is the reality of child labor. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-i-volunteer-to-get-paid-below-minimum-wage/675262/184 "2013-12-03T05:11:57Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I don’t think so. Think about if you ran a coffee shop. Would you just always pay the lowest wage you could? Or would you take into account things like not wanting to retrain people because of employees leaving for slightly more money? Take into account how well that new employee does his job? How punctual he is? How reliable? How well he deals with customers? His general attitude? > > Keep in mind, you’d be competing for both employees and customers. You want the best of the former so you get the most of the latter. Interesting theories. But the real world says those theories are wrong. People do pay the lowest wage they can get away with without regard to the possible long-term consequences. Look around at how many millions of people are getting paid minimum wage right now. Do you think it’s just a coincidence their employers are paying them that amount? That federal law just happened to set the minimum wage at the exact amount that these employers would have chosen to pay? I find that unlikely. What seems a lot more likely is that those employers would pay less if it wasn’t illegal. And as you pointed out, there are economic benefits to paying people a little more than the least you can get away with. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 8:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-i-volunteer-to-get-paid-below-minimum-wage/675262/185 "2013-12-03T08:56:39Z")
Well, **Terr** , I can see why you no longer live in Israel. Too much “We’re all in this together” crap for you here, huh? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 9:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-i-volunteer-to-get-paid-below-minimum-wage/675262/186 "2013-12-03T09:06:22Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Well, **Terr** , I can see why you no longer live in Israel. Too much “We’re all in this together” crap for you here, huh? Because of other stuff, I was willing to hold my nose on the socialist crap, yes, while I lived in Israel. When I retire, I plan to buy some property there and spend a couple of months a year. Probably around Herzeliya, I like that area. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 9:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-i-volunteer-to-get-paid-below-minimum-wage/675262/187 "2013-12-03T09:28:26Z")
You say socialism, I say Zionism. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 10:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-i-volunteer-to-get-paid-below-minimum-wage/675262/188 "2013-12-03T10:22:02Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > … or they won’t employ anyone at all. Or, in the first case, maybe they will employ two instead of one. > In one case, yes, but maybe two. In the other - maybe, or maybe zero. Good news - we don’t have to speculate on this, there’s actually pretty extensive data comparing states with higher and lower minimum wage. The result? Your idea _fails miserably_. There aren’t noticeable differences in employment, and seeing as most of the companies that hire at minimum wage are retail and food service (which you really can’t offshore, or even export to a neighboring state), this makes pretty good sense. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 10:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-i-volunteer-to-get-paid-below-minimum-wage/675262/189 "2013-12-03T10:26:03Z")
It’s adorable when libertarians claim that the alternative to the “state deciding what’s best for everyone” is “people deciding what’s best for themselves”, when all evidence shows that the real alternative is “corporations deciding what’s best for everyone”…or rather, what’s best for them and screw everyone else. Libertopia is an unachievable goal. There are many things the government shouldn’t do, but maintaining the stability of the economy and preventing rampant exploitation of people and common resources are things they should be responsible for. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-i-volunteer-to-get-paid-below-minimum-wage/675262/190 "2013-12-03T11:44:47Z")
This American system of representative democracy is so unamerican! We ought to get back to what our founding fathers wanted. You know, “I, the person, in order to avoid any semblance of union…” ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-i-volunteer-to-get-paid-below-minimum-wage/675262/191 "2013-12-03T19:01:33Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Actually, it does. If it didn’t, mostly everyone would make minimum wage =, wouldn’t they, as it represents the way to pay the least money out. Look at every person not in a union making more than minimum wage. No one mandated that they be paid those higher wages. My employers paid me based on my skills, attitude, and what I could negotiate. And every increase in salary was what I could negotiate based on my contribution, initiative, attitude, etc. You’re comparing apples and oranges, which is a particularly heinous thing to do according to this thread. Let’s start with you. It’s not about you. It’s not about your experience. It’s about the total sum of employment of every kind in the country. The driving fact about a minimum wage is that it sets a minimum that is not zero. Though this should be obvious, it’s often lost in the noise. Employers do compete for employees. Nobody has ever said otherwise. The minimum wage sets an entry level for wages that employees can use to bargain with, based on skills, experience, need, and aptitude. Nor is the minimum wage permanent. Even those who start with minimum wage can obtain higher wages though longevity or promotion (either within the company or taking their experience elsewhere). But those higher wages, along with the ones gained upon entry, are predicated upon a minimum that is not zero and not as low as an employer would like. The purpose of a minimum wage is twofold: it sets a level upon which all other wages can be set and it prevents a general deflator effect throughout the economy to lessen the damage during recessions. The minimum wage was put into law during the Depression for exactly the reason that drives virtually all other regulatory laws: the abuses of not having one were so burdensome to the society at large that they overwhelmed any negatives. The number of people making minimum wage (or less) is about [5% of the hourly wage force](http://www.bls.gov/cps/minwage2011.htm). It is precisely because of the minimum wage that those other 95% can bargain their way to a higher wage. And those wages supply the money that keeps all the businesses in operation. (That recognition was probably the only good thing to come out of Henry Ford’s miserable mind.) Government intervention often - very often - does a major amount of good. Sorry if that doesn’t match your philosophical ideals. As I said earlier, I find the evidence totally persuasive. And I find no support in history for equivalent value stemming from the lack of it in these particular fields. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-i-volunteer-to-get-paid-below-minimum-wage/675262/192 "2013-12-03T19:16:21Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > It is precisely because of the minimum wage that those other 95% can bargain their way to a higher wage. I know. It’s only because of the minimum wage that I got my $95/hr job. If not for minimum wage, they’d be paying me $2/hr. Thank you, government, for having my back. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-i-volunteer-to-get-paid-below-minimum-wage/675262/193 "2013-12-03T19:33:36Z")
My next thread in GD: “Resolved: the humblebrag is a valid form of debate.” ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-i-volunteer-to-get-paid-below-minimum-wage/675262/194 "2013-12-03T19:36:15Z")
> [@andros](#): > > My next thread in GD: > > “Resolved: the humblebrag is a valid form of debate.” Was just an example. I am self-employed for the last 15 years. Last time I worked for wages, that was about the right salary. I am so happy minimum wage forced my employers into giving it to me. Otherwise I would’ve had to settle for $2/hr. Or less. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-i-volunteer-to-get-paid-below-minimum-wage/675262/195 "2013-12-03T19:38:17Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Was just an example. I am self-employed for the last 15 years. Last time I worked for wages, that was about the right salary. I am so happy minimum wage forced my employers into giving it to me. Otherwise I would’ve had to settle for $2/hr. Or less. Which post made such a claim? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-i-volunteer-to-get-paid-below-minimum-wage/675262/196 "2013-12-03T19:40:42Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Which post made such a claim? “It is precisely because of the minimum wage that those other 95% can bargain their way to a higher wage.” or, of course, post #136 that “mathematically” argues that in the absence of minimum wage employees will pay $0.01. Cuz they have the scarce commodity, you see. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-i-volunteer-to-get-paid-below-minimum-wage/675262/197 "2013-12-03T19:41:59Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > “It is precisely because of the minimum wage that those other 95% can bargain their way to a higher wage.” Not even close. As usual. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-i-volunteer-to-get-paid-below-minimum-wage/675262/198 "2013-12-03T19:43:24Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Was just an example. **I am self-employed for the last 15 years.** Last time I worked for wages, that was about the right salary. I am so happy minimum wage forced my employers into giving it to me. Otherwise I would’ve had to settle for $2/hr. Or less. That explains why you know so much about the current state of job seeking. ---
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-i-volunteer-to-get-paid-below-minimum-wage/675262/199 "2013-12-03T19:51:41Z")
I go away from this thread for a few days only to return and find the same old philosophical games that don’t jive with reality. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-i-volunteer-to-get-paid-below-minimum-wage/675262/200 "2013-12-03T19:54:28Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Was just an example. I am self-employed for the last 15 years. Last time I worked for wages, that was about the right salary. I am so happy minimum wage forced my employers into giving it to me. Otherwise I would’ve had to settle for $2/hr. Or less. “In its majestic equality, the law forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, beg in the streets and steal loaves of bread.” – Anatole France [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-i-volunteer-to-get-paid-below-minimum-wage/675262.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-i-volunteer-to-get-paid-below-minimum-wage/675262.md?page=11)