# Why can't I volunteer to get paid below minimum wage? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 2, 2013, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-i-volunteer-to-get-paid-below-minimum-wage/675262 "2013-12-02T02:47:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2013, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-i-volunteer-to-get-paid-below-minimum-wage/675262/41 "2013-12-02T16:05:26Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > No, people who volunteer should not be expected to be compensated for their effort or time because if they were, _it’s not volunteering_. It’s like if I told the old lady on my block “I’ll volunteer to walk your dog if you pay me”. Doesn’t make much sense, right? Of course not. Tell that to the [“all-volunteer” military](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volunteer_military). ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2013, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-i-volunteer-to-get-paid-below-minimum-wage/675262/42 "2013-12-02T16:18:02Z")
Only because it sounds better than “non-conscripted military” ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2013, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-i-volunteer-to-get-paid-below-minimum-wage/675262/43 "2013-12-02T16:41:45Z")
Would having volunteer employees change the set of laws under which McDonalds operates? ---
**Author:** ![drewtwo99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d07c76/32.png) [@drewtwo99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewtwo99)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2013, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-i-volunteer-to-get-paid-below-minimum-wage/675262/44 "2013-12-02T16:48:09Z")
For the record, I strongly believe in a reasonable minimum wage. My questions were sincere and not “gotchas!” I appreciate the cite for the law that allows certain officer employees and others different payment amounts, and that the title itself has nothing to do with it, but the actual duties involved with the job. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2013, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-i-volunteer-to-get-paid-below-minimum-wage/675262/45 "2013-12-02T16:56:53Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > I interpreted it as a “Why isn’t this legal?” kind of question: If X is legal, and Z is legal, why isn’t Y, which is an intermediate stage between X and Z, legal? Or maybe a “What’s wrong with my idea for getting around the law?” kind of question, like the popular “Can I get around the laws against prostitution by hiring a prostitute to star in a porn movie with me?” And we answered that, and the OP ignored the answers. The law needs metrics (that ugly and now inescapable term) to function. Why is a person allowed to vote at 18 and not at 17 years and 11 months? Why is a person allowed to drink at 21 and not 20 years, 11 months? Why is a person allowed to vote at 18 but not drink until 21? Because the law is not a good place to judge emotional or intellectual maturity. After much trial and error and moving the boundaries, we (Americans) as a country decided to draw lines because any other approach would be chaos, and these particular lines because they seem to balance the demands of competing interests in the most acceptable way. “Living wage” is not a legal concept. It’s pure opinion and can’t be addressed in GQ. Minimum wage is a fixed number and therefore can be administered by law. Whether it should exist and how much it should be can and is constantly argued, and is adjusted both at the state and national levels constantly. Who it applies to is also a matter of definition. As noted it doesn’t apply to officers of a corporation or to individual contractors and [it doesn’t apply to a variety of occupations](http://www.dol.gov/compliance/guide/minwage.htm) for mostly historic reasons. > [@](#): > > The following are examples of employees exempt from both the minimum wage and overtime pay requirements: > > ``` > Executive, administrative, and professional employees (including teachers and academic administrative personnel in elementary and secondary schools), outside sales employees, and certain skilled computer professionals (as defined in the Department of Labor's regulations) > Employees of certain seasonal amusement or recreational establishments > Employees of certain small newspapers and switchboard operators of small telephone companies > Seamen employed on foreign vessels > Employees engaged in fishing operations > Employees engaged in newspaper delivery > Farm workers employed on small farms (i.e., those that used less than 500 "man‑days" of farm labor in any calendar quarter of the preceding calendar year) > Casual babysitters and persons employed as companions to the elderly or infirm > > ``` Beyond that we get into a host of other laws. Employers have more responsibilities to employees than just paying them wages. Employees have to have proper training and safety instructions and equipment and breaks and days off. They have some protections in some places about being fired. They are entitled to worker’s comp. I’m not even sure whether volunteers are allowed to work at all businesses. They may be limited to non-profits in certain cases. But I am very certain that volunteers are not employees and can’t simply be plugged in to replace employees. They are two different legal concepts. If the OP wants to work part-time, there are millions of part-time jobs. If he wants to get rid of minimum wage, he needs to understand why the system is set up the way it is. Hint: it’s not set up to accommodate his particular needs and wants. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2013, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-i-volunteer-to-get-paid-below-minimum-wage/675262/46 "2013-12-02T16:57:03Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Because the state knows better than you what’s good for you. Where the “state” is of, by and for the people, what is objectionable about the people deciding what standards of behavior should be established in the society that the people want to maintain? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2013, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-i-volunteer-to-get-paid-below-minimum-wage/675262/47 "2013-12-02T17:00:27Z")
[Here](http://www.dol.gov/elaws/esa/flsa/docs/volunteers.asp) is the scoop on volunteering. > [@](#): > > Individuals who volunteer or donate their services, usually on a part-time basis, for public service, religious or humanitarian objectives, not as employees and without contemplation of pay, are not considered employees of the religious, charitable or similar non-profit organizations that receive their service. If McDonalds became a food bank, then you can volunteer to mop the floors. Not otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2013, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-i-volunteer-to-get-paid-below-minimum-wage/675262/48 "2013-12-02T17:01:42Z")
> [@Claverhouse](#): > > Why can’t poor people auction off their spare kidneys ? Why are caterers and consumers separated by an intrusive group of government busybodies prying into health and safety regulations instead of making their own uncoerced bargains ? Why can’t passengers just turn up and haggle for airfares before take-off ? > These are questions that keep libertarians up all night. Libertarian (n): a person who thinks the Triangle Fire was a tragedy - for employers everywhere. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2013, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-i-volunteer-to-get-paid-below-minimum-wage/675262/49 "2013-12-02T17:10:02Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Terr, what regulations, if any, do you feel are sensible? What regulations do you believe are beneficial to society? Environmental regulations? Child labor laws? Minimum wage? Because this statement seems to imply that you really don’t understand what regulation is or why it’s important. Which, given your posting history, would not surprise me one bit, but still… Anything that is aimed to protect an individual from himself is not “sensible”. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2013, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-i-volunteer-to-get-paid-below-minimum-wage/675262/50 "2013-12-02T17:12:14Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Where the “state” is of, by and for the people, what is objectionable about the people deciding what standards of behavior should be established in the society that the people want to maintain? Legislating morality - isn’t it a liberal “no-no”? ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2013, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-i-volunteer-to-get-paid-below-minimum-wage/675262/51 "2013-12-02T17:19:37Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Legislating morality - isn’t it a liberal “no-no”? No, it flat out isn’t. All laws of every kind comprise legislating morality. There may possibly be a few dedicated anarchists who are against all law, but they are negligible in number and influence. There are also no such thing as laws that concern only individuals. All laws - like all actions and inactions - have a ripple effect that affect all of society. That’s why government and laws exist. Society demands them. However, using one single religion’s beliefs to impose its morality on others is a no-no for liberals, and obviously should be for all sentient beings. That’s an astoundingly large gap not to understand. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2013, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-i-volunteer-to-get-paid-below-minimum-wage/675262/52 "2013-12-02T17:21:59Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Anything that is aimed to protect an individual from himself is not “sensible”. How about one specific example? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2013, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-i-volunteer-to-get-paid-below-minimum-wage/675262/53 "2013-12-02T17:27:33Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > How about one specific example? Minimum wage laws. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2013, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-i-volunteer-to-get-paid-below-minimum-wage/675262/54 "2013-12-02T17:31:13Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > However, using one single religion’s beliefs to impose its morality on others is a no-no for liberals, and obviously should be for all sentient beings. So it’s ok to impose morality on others as long as the basis of that “morality” is not found anywhere in any religion, right? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2013, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-i-volunteer-to-get-paid-below-minimum-wage/675262/55 "2013-12-02T17:31:39Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Minimum wage laws. That’s protecting the employee from the greedy bloodsuckers. Sorry, “job creators”. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2013, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-i-volunteer-to-get-paid-below-minimum-wage/675262/56 "2013-12-02T17:34:12Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Minimum wage laws. Very bad example, which has already been pointed out in this very thread. You _have_ read this thread, haven’t you? How about another specific example that hasn’t already been disproved? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2013, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-i-volunteer-to-get-paid-below-minimum-wage/675262/57 "2013-12-02T17:35:57Z")
> [@runner pat](#): > > That’s protecting the employee from the greedy bloodsuckers. And if the person wants to work for less than minimum wage, whom are you protecting? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2013, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-i-volunteer-to-get-paid-below-minimum-wage/675262/58 "2013-12-02T17:37:00Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Very bad example, which has already been pointed out in this very thread. You _have_ read this thread, haven’t you? > How about another specific example that hasn’t already been disproved? Minimum wage laws. Preventing an individual who wants to work for a particular wage from doing so. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2013, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-i-volunteer-to-get-paid-below-minimum-wage/675262/59 "2013-12-02T17:39:36Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > And if the person wants to work for less than minimum wage, whom are you protecting? The other workers earning minimum wage who now have to fear being fired when other desperate “volunteers” decide to make the same asinine move. One gigantic race to the bottom, benefiting no-one but the owners of the businesses. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2013, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-i-volunteer-to-get-paid-below-minimum-wage/675262/60 "2013-12-02T17:42:58Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Minimum wage laws. Preventing an individual who wants to work for a particular wage from doing so. No one in he/his right mind _wants_ to work for a lower wage, but if the law allowed it they might be desperate enough to try it, not know how much they are screwing over both themselves and their fellow workers. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-i-volunteer-to-get-paid-below-minimum-wage/675262.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-i-volunteer-to-get-paid-below-minimum-wage/675262.md?page=4)