# Why can't I volunteer to get paid below minimum wage? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 2, 2013, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-i-volunteer-to-get-paid-below-minimum-wage/675262 "2013-12-02T02:47:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2013, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-i-volunteer-to-get-paid-below-minimum-wage/675262/61 "2013-12-02T17:45:13Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > The other workers earning minimum wage who now have to fear being fired when other desperate “volunteers” decide to make the same asinine move. One gigantic race to the bottom, benefiting no-one but the owners of the businesses. Of course. “Asinine move”. Because you (the state) know better than they do what is good for them. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2013, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-i-volunteer-to-get-paid-below-minimum-wage/675262/62 "2013-12-02T17:46:22Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > No one in he/his right mind _wants_ to work for a lower wage Sure they do. If they have a choice between no work and work for $5/hr. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2013, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-i-volunteer-to-get-paid-below-minimum-wage/675262/63 "2013-12-02T17:47:57Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Of course. “Asinine move”. Because you (the state) know better than they do what is good for them. Or the state knows better what is good for society than you do. ---
**Author:** ![Karrius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/71c47a/32.png) [@Karrius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Karrius)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2013, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-i-volunteer-to-get-paid-below-minimum-wage/675262/64 "2013-12-02T17:49:17Z")
Terr, do you support the almost-slavery of unpaid internships that a lot of companies are doing recently, with the “Work for us for no pay for long enough, and if we like you, you _might_ get a job but we won’t promise anything” ? Do you feel this is an OK thing for companies to do, and an OK way for the world to work? Do you support a strong welfare such to make sure people who have to work unpaid for for-profit companies can eat? Do you also think child labor laws are a bad idea, as has previously been asked of you? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2013, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-i-volunteer-to-get-paid-below-minimum-wage/675262/65 "2013-12-02T17:49:59Z")
> [@runner pat](#): > > Or the state knows better what is good for society than you do. Reminds me of the Ilf and Petrov’s “Twelve Chairs” scene where in the early Soviet state there is a slogan on the wall of a cafeteria: “Thoroughly masticating your food you’re helping society!” ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2013, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-i-volunteer-to-get-paid-below-minimum-wage/675262/66 "2013-12-02T17:51:31Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Sure they do. If they have a choice between no work and work for $5/hr. Are you proposing that the minimum wage be set a $5/hr? If not, what makes you think that $5/hr would be the lowest it could go? For that matter, let’s see where you actually stand on this matter: What full-time job would _you_ be willing to do for $5/hr if you didn’t have any other money coming in from other sources? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2013, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-i-volunteer-to-get-paid-below-minimum-wage/675262/67 "2013-12-02T17:54:14Z")
> [@Karrius](#): > > Terr, do you support the almost-slavery of unpaid internships that a lot of companies are doing recently, with the “Work for us for no pay for long enough, and if we like you, you _might_ get a job but we won’t promise anything” ? Is it a voluntary arrangement or is someone holding a gun to the intern’s head? If it is voluntary, yes, I “support” it - if not wanting to prevent people from entering into voluntary contracts can be called “support”. > [@](#): > > Do you support a strong welfare such to make sure people who have to work unpaid for for-profit companies can eat? No, I do not support mooching off others. > [@](#): > > Do you also think child labor laws are a bad idea, as has previously been asked of you? If the parent thinks it’s ok for the child to work, the state has no business interfering. Welfare of the child is the parent’s responsibility, except for extreme cases. If you’re talking about an extreme case, I may agree on the state interfering. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2013, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-i-volunteer-to-get-paid-below-minimum-wage/675262/68 "2013-12-02T17:55:42Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Reminds me of the Ilf and Petrov’s “Twelve Chairs” scene where in the early Soviet state there is a slogan on the wall of a cafeteria: “Thoroughly masticating your food you’re helping society!” What is the “Commie!” version of Godwin’s Law called? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2013, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-i-volunteer-to-get-paid-below-minimum-wage/675262/69 "2013-12-02T17:55:46Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Are you proposing that the minimum wage be set a $5/hr? No. I propose no minimum wage. > [@](#): > > For that matter, let’s see where you actually stand on this matter: What full-time job would _you_ be willing to do for $5/hr if you didn’t have any other money coming in from other sources? If I had no other sources of income, any full-time job. I’d be looking for better-paying work as well meantime. ---
**Author:** ![Karrius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/71c47a/32.png) [@Karrius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Karrius)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2013, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-i-volunteer-to-get-paid-below-minimum-wage/675262/70 "2013-12-02T17:57:36Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Is it a voluntary arrangement or is someone holding a gun to the intern’s head? If it is voluntary, yes, I “support” it - if not wanting to prevent people from entering into voluntary contracts can be called “support”. > > No, I do not support mooching off others > > If the parent thinks it’s ok for the child to work, the state has no business interfering. Welfare of the child is the parent’s responsibility, except for extreme cases. If you’re talking about an extreme case, I may agree on the state interfering. Terr, how do you expect people who have no available jobs - due to having to work for an unknown amount of time for no money before they’re paid - and no government assistance _not_ starve to death? Do you care that they’d starve to death? Does the thought of it make you happy? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2013, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-i-volunteer-to-get-paid-below-minimum-wage/675262/71 "2013-12-02T17:57:46Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Reminds me of the Ilf and Petrov’s “Twelve Chairs” scene where in the early Soviet state there is a slogan on the wall of a cafeteria: “Thoroughly masticating your food you’re helping society!” At least with a MW, there’s a chance of food to masticate. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2013, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-i-volunteer-to-get-paid-below-minimum-wage/675262/72 "2013-12-02T17:58:41Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > No. I propose no minimum wage. > > If I had no other sources of income, any full-time job. I’d be looking for better-paying work as well meantime. How would you pay for food, pay your bills, and where would you live, all on $5/hr? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2013, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-i-volunteer-to-get-paid-below-minimum-wage/675262/73 "2013-12-02T18:03:43Z")
> [@Karrius](#): > > Terr, how do you expect people who have no available jobs - due to having to work for an unknown amount of time for no money before they’re paid - and no government assistance _not_ starve to death? Charity. ---
**Author:** ![Karrius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/71c47a/32.png) [@Karrius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Karrius)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2013, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-i-volunteer-to-get-paid-below-minimum-wage/675262/74 "2013-12-02T18:06:18Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Charity. And what would happen if the charities could not, or refuse to support somebody? Resources of charities aren’t always endless, and feeding people every single day, for months at a time while they work a full-time job as a slave to a company that doesn’t care about them is rough. In addition, many major christian charities have refused to support people who they felt weren’t christian enough. The salvation army, for instance, has in some cases chosen to let people die. Do you not feel that charity is “mooching” ? Why is that different? Do you not feel that a company that is getting free work in exchange for “Well, we MIGHT pay you some day…” is mooching? Why isn’t the company a moocher in this case? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2013, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-i-volunteer-to-get-paid-below-minimum-wage/675262/75 "2013-12-02T18:06:26Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Charity. Show me a time in our history where charity was up to the task. edited to add: For that matter, if you take away the government tax breaks given to corporations for their charitable contributions, how bad off do you think the situation would be? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2013, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-i-volunteer-to-get-paid-below-minimum-wage/675262/76 "2013-12-02T18:08:30Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > How would you pay for food, pay your bills, and where would you live, all on $5/hr? Move in with parents. Have many roommates. Work more than 8 hours a day. Use the charity that is available. And, above all, look for better-paying jobs, anywhere in the country. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2013, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-i-volunteer-to-get-paid-below-minimum-wage/675262/77 "2013-12-02T18:09:50Z")
> [@Karrius](#): > > Do you not feel that charity is “mooching” ? Why is that different? When people give to you, voluntarily, that is charity. When the government forces people to give to you, it isn’t. See the difference? > [@](#): > > Do you not feel that a company that is getting free work in exchange for “Well, we MIGHT pay you some day…” is mooching? Why isn’t the company a moocher in this case? Is it a voluntary arrangement? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2013, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-i-volunteer-to-get-paid-below-minimum-wage/675262/78 "2013-12-02T18:10:04Z")
What better paying jobs? They’ll all be in the same race to the bottom. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2013, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-i-volunteer-to-get-paid-below-minimum-wage/675262/79 "2013-12-02T18:11:58Z")
Here’s the thing though. There aren’t going to be a lot of $5/hr jobs even if we repealed the minimum wage, because anybody who is only worth $5/hr probably isn’t even worth that. Employers hire employees because they believe the employee will earn more money for the business than they cost in salary, benefits, compliance, accidents, and so on. If you were McDonalds would you hire a homeless guy for $4/hour to scrub the floor? No, because that homeless guy is going to do a terrible job. That person is unemployable, not because wages are arbitrarily set too high, but because they don’t have the mental and physical skills to hold a job at any wage. Minimum wage does not apply to very many workers, the idea that there is a large pool of untapped labor that would be hirable at sub-minimum wage is nonsense. And besides, minimum wages are set at the lowest levels in decades when measured in real dollars. Raising the minimum wage by a small amount isn’t going to change much, lowering the minimum wage by a small amount isn’t going to change much, because minimum wage jobs aren’t a very important part of the labor market. Yes, we’ve set an arbitrary wage floor. But that wage floor is very very low. The people advocating for repeal of minimum wage laws are never employers with a lot of minimum wage employees, or unemployed people wishing for an even crappier job than those that already exist. It’s always armchair libertarians who aren’t concerned by the actual distorting effect of the actually existing minimum wage, they’re just annoyed at the very idea of such a thing as minimum wage, since any government regulation of prices is tyranny. But if libertarians want to convince people that we should repeal minimum wage laws (both state and federal) they can’t just start with the premise that such regulations are tyranny and expect to win the argument, because most people don’t agree with that premise. Instead we would have to argue that minimum wage laws are unwise, and show how employers and employees are harmed by minimum wage laws. But the problem with that approach is that it is probably not true that many people are harmed by the law. The hardcore unemployable at $7.50/hr are not going to be magically profitable to hire at $3.50, because those people who are such terrible employees they aren’t worth hiring at $7.50 are still going to be terrible employees no matter how little you can pay them. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2013, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-i-volunteer-to-get-paid-below-minimum-wage/675262/80 "2013-12-02T18:16:02Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > When people give to you, voluntarily, that is charity. When the government forces people to give to you, it isn’t. See the difference? > Is it a voluntary arrangement? Should corporations get tax breaks for contributing to charities? Do you volunteer to pay higher taxes for this to happen? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-i-volunteer-to-get-paid-below-minimum-wage/675262.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-i-volunteer-to-get-paid-below-minimum-wage/675262.md?page=5)