# Why can't men take responsibility for their own depraved desires? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 22, 2004, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-men-take-responsibility-for-their-own-depraved-desires/246542 "2004-05-22T17:15:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![betenoir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/258eb7/32.png) [@betenoir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoir)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2004, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-men-take-responsibility-for-their-own-depraved-desires/246542/21 "2004-05-23T12:49:05Z")
All sadly true, Suezeekay. But most of those examples of abuse involve men using women for their sexual desires (or just generally exercising power over them)…not, as the OP has it, blaming them for it. Not that there aren’t good examples…burkas in Saudi Arabia and elsewhere being a great one. But I’m still not convinced it’s some eternal feature of the male pysche so much as a toxic mixture of cultural sexual guilt and too much power. (An “eternal feature of the male pysche” being what seems to be implied by the OP) ---
**Author:** ![betenoir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/258eb7/32.png) [@betenoir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoir)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2004, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-men-take-responsibility-for-their-own-depraved-desires/246542/22 "2004-05-23T12:51:43Z")
> [@dook](#): > > Oooooh, BDSM, SDMB… coincidence? I think not! How do you think I got here, dook? I was looking for kinky sex sites, but I’m dyslexic 😛 ---
**Author:** ![kittenblue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ba8739/32.png) [@kittenblue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kittenblue)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2004, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-men-take-responsibility-for-their-own-depraved-desires/246542/23 "2004-05-23T13:14:43Z")
I think everyone is conveniently forgetting the whole issue of honor killings and related events in the Muslim world. I can’t find a link right this minute, but I think it was last week’s **60 Minutes** that had a story about the fate of Muslim women in France. Numerous Muslim young women have been raped by Muslim men, and all the blame and shame falls on the woman. This story was not the only one…there was a Muslim girl murdered in our area, and her brothers were blamed. This fits in with the OP’s contention that certain religions place the blame for sexual misconduct sqaurely on the woman’s shoulders, even if she is the object of stranger rape. You never hear about honor killings of boys whose family found out they were having sex out of wedlock. ---
**Author:** ![Futile\_Gesture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f05b48/32.png) [@Futile\_Gesture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Futile_Gesture)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2004, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-men-take-responsibility-for-their-own-depraved-desires/246542/24 "2004-05-23T13:29:38Z")
> [@suezeekay](#): > > Didn’t Christianity teach from the beginning that women were “occasions of sin”. And to this day, in some countries women who are raped are murdered by their families for shaming them. In Saudia Arabia, the women have to wear covers over their heads for just this reason; they might tempt men to do things the Koran forbids. Why don’t the men wear a lock on their penis? To look at the issue from a purely biological and “selfish gene” viewpoint… Male humans have no other way of ensuring that the offspring produced by the female is theirs except by jealously guarding them from others. Otherwise they may end up committing to the upbringing of another man’s genes. Females, on the other hand, always know that the offspring is 50% theirs. So all they have to worry about is obtaining the best ‘donor’ for the other 50%. And that may involve deceiving their chosen mate. So men are just being slaves to their instincts here. Equally we could say women who ‘cheat’ are being slaves to theirs. Naturally that doesn’t excuse all actions, and we like to think that we’re more than just selfish instincts. But it does explain the existance of the more oppressive and unpalatable measures. As [Jared Diamond](http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0297818538/qid=1085318715/sr=1-10/ref=sr_1_11_10/202-3695290-1668614) says, this basic conflict of interests lies at the root of a whole mass of human behaviour and grief. But for better or worse, it’s what makes us what we are. ---
**Author:** ![Scarf-Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc79bd/32.png) [@Scarf-Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scarf-Ace)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2004, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-men-take-responsibility-for-their-own-depraved-desires/246542/25 "2004-05-23T13:53:29Z")
Hey there seems to be a misunderstanding here, I have absolutely nothing against practitioners of BDSM, and am all for alternative expressions of sexuality. When I use the word “pervert” I don’t mean to intone condemnation of any acts or practices in any way. And I certainly don’t want to tar bondage enthusiasts with the same brush as Calvinists. Just to be clear on that point. I’m just saying that the transferring of responsibility for sexual desires (however divergent from the “norm”) from men onto women has been written into our society for thousands of years. Whether its in the dungeon, or in church, its essentially the same process - absolution. Oh and BDSM, SDMB… definitely more than coincidence 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![cornflakes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9d8465/32.png) [@cornflakes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cornflakes)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2004, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-men-take-responsibility-for-their-own-depraved-desires/246542/26 "2004-05-23T20:38:59Z")
> [@Meta-Gumble](#): > > When I use the word “pervert” I don’t mean to intone condemnation of any acts or practices in any way. And I certainly don’t want to tar bondage enthusiasts with the same brush as Calvinists. Just to be clear on that point. Sorry for my confusion. The “perverts who need a domina to force them to do depraved sexual acts” thing threw me off your point. Yes, humans have historically considered beauty and sexuality to be in the realm of women. I doubt that we’re hardwired to do this, but it does seem to be a common attitude across cultures. All considered, I’d say it’s predictable that irresponsible men would blame the women who allegedly manage their sexuality for the bad things as well as the good. Sure, women have been persecuted over sexual matters, but I don’t think it’s simply that “men blame women for their depraved desires” as much as it is that men, like women, can be irresponsible and a lot of people think that women are the sexual side of the human race. I don’t think that the solution lies in prudely pointing the finger at men as much as it lies in valuing responsibility. Accepting that everyone has a sexuality might help a little too. ---
**Author:** ![Scarf-Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc79bd/32.png) [@Scarf-Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scarf-Ace)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2004, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-men-take-responsibility-for-their-own-depraved-desires/246542/27 "2004-05-23T20:55:15Z")
> [@](#): > > Quote: > Originally Posted by Meta-Gumble > When I use the word “pervert” I don’t mean to intone condemnation of any acts or practices in any way. And I certainly don’t want to tar bondage enthusiasts with the same brush as Calvinists. Just to be clear on that point. > Sorry for my confusion. The “perverts who need a domina to force them to do depraved sexual acts” thing threw me off your point. Don’t be - Calvinism runs in the family and I tend to find that it colours my outlook sometimes. I should have maybe been more thoughtful before posting. ---
**Author:** ![irishgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/8edcca/32.png) [@irishgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/irishgirl)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2004, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-men-take-responsibility-for-their-own-depraved-desires/246542/28 "2004-05-23T21:32:27Z")
Having just skimmed over the thread, I’m not sure if anyone mentioned it yet. Magdalene Laundries. In Ireland, right up until the 1960s and 70s, unmarried mothers were placed in these institutions, often for life, where they washed linen in order to atone for their sins. They also faced physical, psychological and sometimes sexual abuse, and were cut off from friends and family, including, of course, their babies. The fathers of these babies, if they were ever identified, faced at worst, a few Hail Marys and a Novena. Men were not expected to be able to control themselves, and women were expected to stop them. In fact, sometimes girls who had been raised in orphanages were felt by the nuns to be too pretty and to have them walking about unsupervised would be a threat to the morals of any man in the vicinity. Guess where they ended up when they turned 18? The laundries. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-men-take-responsibility-for-their-own-depraved-desires/246542/29 "2004-05-24T02:12:40Z")
Moving this to Great Debates. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-men-take-responsibility-for-their-own-depraved-desires/246542/30 "2004-05-24T02:49:01Z")
> [@Smeghead](#): > > I try to take responsibility for my depraved desires, but just the other night, while I was asleep, my depraved desires snuck out of the house, stole a car, and drove it into a creek. You should do what I did. Take a classified ad out that says, “After May 23, 2004, Smeghead is no longer responsible for his depraved desires,” and change your locks. Then no matter what they do you can point to the ad and the locks and tell the cops that it’s no longer your problem. Other than that I fear > [@Meta-Gumble](#): > > So will men ever take responsibility for their own perverted lusts, or will woman have to bear the burden forever more? tells me that there may be more behind this question than meets the eye. I realize Great Debates is no place for such a discussion, though, and Meta-Gumble might benefit from discussing it in MPSIMS. Not that the topic as discussed here isn’t interesting or out of place, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-men-take-responsibility-for-their-own-depraved-desires/246542/31 "2004-05-24T03:01:32Z")
> [@Meta-Gumble](#): > > I’m just saying that the transferring of responsibility for sexual desires (however divergent from the “norm”) from men onto women has been written into our society for thousands of years. Whether its in the dungeon, or in church, its essentially the same process - absolution. It’s been common enough for women to shirk responsibility for their own sexual desires by simply denying that they have any. I’m not talking about cases of women who falsely claim rape after the fact; I think these are quite rare. However, society has long encouraged women to pretend that they only tolerate sex because they want to make babies or please their man. Even in modern America I’ve heard of sexually active young women who avoid going on birth control because that would be an admission that they’re _planning_ to have sex (something “nice girls” don’t do) instead of just happening to get swept away in a romantic moment. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 7:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-men-take-responsibility-for-their-own-depraved-desires/246542/32 "2004-05-24T07:18:11Z")
> [@Meta-Gumble](#): > > To me this is representative of a whole male attitude Gee, could you maybe paint that with a _bigger_ brush? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-men-take-responsibility-for-their-own-depraved-desires/246542/33 "2004-05-24T14:48:36Z")
I place the blame firmly where it belongs…alchohol…sweet sweeeet liquor…um…ahem ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-men-take-responsibility-for-their-own-depraved-desires/246542/34 "2004-05-24T15:37:33Z")
> [@irishgirl](#): > > Having just skimmed over the thread, I’m not sure if anyone mentioned it yet. > > Magdalene Laundries. > . Though I haven’t seen it, a documentary on the laundries was shown in theaters recently. I considered bringing them up myself. The laundries are run by nuns-women. The laundries also provide an extremely cheap source of labor. If men are responsible for the laundries, why are they run by women? Could it be that sex is just the explanation offered to hide the fact that the laundries exist for financial reasons? ---
**Author:** ![Algernon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a183cd/32.png) [@Algernon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algernon)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-men-take-responsibility-for-their-own-depraved-desires/246542/35 "2004-05-24T16:24:06Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > Though I haven’t seen it, a documentary on the laundries was shown in theaters recently. I haven’t seen it either, but I don’t believe it was a documentary. [Magdalene Sisters (IMDB link)](http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0318411/). I had never even heard about this movie until a friend mentioned it to me just last week. He says it was most disturbing. (I almost picked it up at Blockbuster over the weekend, but chose _The Last Samuri_ instead.) [Here](http://www.netreach.net/~steed/magdalen.html) is some additional information on the Magdalene laundries. In my opinion, this sad story is a consequence of a judgemental Church rather than of male dominance (though I suppose the two are difficult to separate). ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-men-take-responsibility-for-their-own-depraved-desires/246542/36 "2004-05-24T16:33:56Z")
Suzeekay, are you perchance related to Dennis Miller? No, Christianity did not teach that from the beginning (Jesus & the Apostles never said any such thing & only a tortured reading of Paul would yield anything like that. Also, you seem to be mixing up Islam & Christianity, including the use of chastity belts (as far as I know a product of “C’tian” Europe, alas, not Islamic Arabia, which however did come up with the “Virgin Sex-partners in Heaven” doctrine.) > [@suezeekay](#): > > Didn’t Christianity teach from the beginning that women were “occasions of sin”. And to this day, in some countries women who are raped are murdered by their families for shaming them. In Saudia Arabia, the women have to wear covers over their heads for just this reason; they might tempt men to do things the Koran forbids. Why don’t the men wear a lock on their penis? something like the iron belt women had to wear during the Crusades? The men sure as hell don’t wear a chasity belt when they travel to western countries and drink and have sex with prostitutes. And what kind of reward are they promised in heaven? Virgins. Virgins? If it wasn’t so absolutely degrading and disgusting to women it could be hysterical to think that that is enough to get some dumb ass man to blow himself up. Just like the 9/11 terrorists. Where did they spend their last night? It was common in Asia only 800 years ago for women to be stolen from a tribe and forced to be a sex (and otherwise) slave to her new “owners”. This caused problems in Ghengis Khan’s clan because he never knew if his oldest child was his, once he stole his wife back. Women were only property. In Afghanistan, the men keep burning down the new schools and threatening the teachers because they think it’s wrong to educate women. And why do you suppose this would be a threat? My observation, esp in places where the rule of law doesn’t exist or supports this kind of thing, that men will in general abuse women because they are physically weaker and can’t do anything about it. In parts of Africa men insist that young women have their clitoris cut out because it’s sinful to feel pleasure and they won’t marry these “sinful” women. In China not so long ago, the young royalty were introduced to sex at such a young age that they were jaded by the time they were 15 and so resorted to more perverted sexual behavior with the female slaves. Today, young female children locked in brothels in Myramar servicing sometimes 20 men a day. Even American women kidnapped for the sex trade in foreign countires. I even hear today in rape cases where men testify that the woman was “asking for it” by the way she was dressed or acting. I can’t think of one country without a system of democratic law, where women, at least on the surface, are equals; otherwise, ladies, we are out of luck. I have three sons so I don’t say lightly that for some reason, unexplainable and unfathomable, men can and do, and probably always will if they can get away with it, oppress and abuse women sexually in many parts of the world. And it will always be our fault because since we aren’t volunteering for it, it must be that they just can’t help themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Scarf-Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc79bd/32.png) [@Scarf-Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scarf-Ace)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-men-take-responsibility-for-their-own-depraved-desires/246542/37 "2004-05-24T17:04:38Z")
blowero: > [@](#): > > Quote: > Originally Posted by Meta-Gumble > > To me this is representative of a whole male attitude > > Gee, could you maybe paint that with a bigger brush? That is taken out of context and is only a summary of the point I was trying to make. In full: A) Official church doctrine places the burden of sin on women B) This is a male doctrine C) This frequently (always?) involves a transfer of fault from the male sinner to a female D) This doctrine has been very influential on our society E) Other, similar transfers of guilt are probably related to the above If you disagree and want to criticize my argument, please treat it is a whole - it makes sense that way. ---
**Author:** ![Mister\_Rik](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mister_rik/32/491_2.png) [@Mister\_Rik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mister_Rik)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-men-take-responsibility-for-their-own-depraved-desires/246542/38 "2004-05-24T17:11:38Z")
“And [God] said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat? And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat. And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.” (Genesis 3:11-13, KJV) From the beginning of time, folks. From the beginning of time. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-men-take-responsibility-for-their-own-depraved-desires/246542/39 "2004-05-24T17:36:17Z")
> [@Meta-Gumble](#): > > blowero: > That is taken out of context and is only a summary of the point I was trying to make. In full: > > A) Official church doctrine places the burden of sin on women > B) This is a male doctrine > C) This frequently (always?) involves a transfer of fault from the male sinner to a female > D) This doctrine has been very influential on our society > E) Other, similar transfers of guilt are probably related to the above > > If you disagree and want to criticize my argument, please treat it is a whole - it makes sense that way. O.K., let’s waste some bandwidth, then: ENTIRE POST: > [@](#): > > I was reading an interview with the author of “The Deil’s Ain”, a look at the persecution of witches in Scotland, and one of the points he made was that women would frequently be raped and then be accused of using magic to “make” the man do it. If he was a member of the church, they would execute her, convienently exonerating him from any blame. > > It seems they had the perfect basis in scripture for this (you know, that whole Adam and Eve thingy). > > **To me this is representative of a whole male attitude, that although prevalent in religion, is not confined to it.** Take the perverts who need a domina to force them to do depraved sexual acts - its a simple switching of responsibility because they can’t handle having such desires themselves. > > In fact I am of the opinion that the two phenomena are inextricably bound together - the religious attitude which makes it acceptable to pass responsibility for lustful desires onto a woman gives license to men everywhere to do so. In fact because of the linking of pleasure to sin, you could argue that it is positively encouraged, as the burden of guilt is removed on doing so. > > **So will men ever take responsibility for their own perverted lusts, or will woman have to bear the burden forever more?** The two parts I have bolded are broad-brush statements about men in general and their attitudes. You are generalizing about approximately _half_ of the world’s population. I see nothing in the context of your post that mitigates either statement in any way. In fact, you even went out of your way to say that you believe it to be “representative of a whole male attitude”. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2004, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-men-take-responsibility-for-their-own-depraved-desires/246542/40 "2004-05-25T01:20:21Z")
> [@Meta-Gumble](#): > > So will men ever take responsibility for their own perverted lusts, or will woman have to bear the burden forever more? I’ll take responsibility for my perverted lusts! In fact, I deserve to be punished for them! Please! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-men-take-responsibility-for-their-own-depraved-desires/246542.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-men-take-responsibility-for-their-own-depraved-desires/246542.md?page=3)